Constituent Assembly Of India -Volume IX

Dated: September 17, 1949

Shrimati G.Durgabai (Madras : General) : Mr. President, I could not resist the temptation to speak a few words on this occasion which I consider is very important. To avoid taking up much of the time of the House I would straightaway say what I have to say.

I welcome this Bill which is going to be passed in a few seconds and which is a great land-mark in the judicial history of India. When this Bill is passed it will serve the long-standing connection existing between the Indian systemand the British system in the judicial sphere. I dare say, as a student of law and also a practitioner who is acquainted with the matter this connection, has benefited our Indian law and Indian system of jurisprudence greatly. I have had occasion to read the judgments of the Privy Council and other important decisions which were mentioned by Shri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar just now. I felt proud of that connection which had done substantial benefit to us. Therefore we should pay a tribute to this connection from Which we are now parting.

This Bill when it becomes an Act will usher in the era of judicial autonomy in India. The important changes made therein are all corollary to the political and constitutional independence of this country. When the Constitution is passed our Federal Court will be designated as the Supreme Court. It will be the highest court of appeal for all high courts and also the judicial authorityfor the interpretation of the Constitution. We wish and we hope that the Supreme Court which is going to be the guardian of the Constitution and of the fundamental rights guaranteed therein, will do its function very well and every citizen in India will have the occasion to say that it has protected his rights as a true guardian of this Constitution.

Sir, there was criticism heard this morning here that we are continuing the jurisdiction of the Privy Council in certain matters. May I say in reply that this will be so only in the class of cases, as Dr. Ambedkar explained, where the judgment has already been delivered or where the report has been made to His Majesty or where the cases have been entered in the list of the business of the Judicial Committee. All the other cases will be disposed of here. We have also made provision in clause 5 that if only leave has been granted after 10th October, the further steps will have to be taken only in the Federal Court. There are some 20 or 25 such cases and these, if they are not decided before 26th January 1950, will have to be taken over to India. It is only just and fair and polite on our part not to take away such classes of appeals which I have already mentioned. With these few words I commend this Bill and say that it will be a very interesting period in our history to watch the progress and functions of the Supreme Court.

Shri Mr. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar (Madras : General) : Sir, I congratulate Dr. Ambedkar that at least now he has found it necessary to bring in this Bill. On a. former occasion when a Bill was brought before Parliament for enlarging the jurisdiction of the Federal Court some of us suggested that all the appeals Pending before the Privy Council should ipso facto be transferred to the Federal court and the jurisdiction of the Privy Council abolished forthwith this was in 1947--we do not know why Dr. Ambedkar vehemently argued against it. I am, however, glad that before the Constitution is passed abolishing the jurisdiction of the Privy Council Dr. Ambedkar has chosen to bring in this Bill. This morning I read in the newspapers that even Canada is taking steps to abolish the jurisdiction of the Privy Council and vest that jurisdiction in their own Supreme Court. Therefore, whether we declare ourselves a Republic or not, this step ought to have been taken earlier-

I have the greatest respect for the Judges who sit in the Privy Council. Between Indian and Indian, from what I have been able to see, they have rendered justice. There may have been occasions when we did not

agree with them in their judgments when the interests of Europeans and Indians clashed. Now, a heavy responsibility falls upon the Federal Court in the, matter of capacity, in the matter of integrity and in the matter of ability. In times when contending political parties are there, each contending to overthrow the other, trying to win mastery over the other, it is difficult to keep calm in that atmosphere. Therefore, all the greater responsibility falls upon the shoulders of the Judges of the Supreme Court and also the President who in future has to select proper men for filling up these posts.The Privy Council might have given a lead in many matters, but so far as social legislation was concerned, we have our own grievances against it. It wanted to fossilise ancient practices. It considered many things under the personal law of the Hindus obsolete. An Indian Supreme Court would not have taken that view. Many things could have been accomplished by an Indian Court interpreting them otherwise. Many things are done not merely by statute law. They are allowed-to progress. If the courts can help by way of interpretation, many things can be done, many revolutions could take place without people noticing them, and progress can be achieved without the legislature embarking on any legislation. I am sure that the future Judges of the Supreme Court, when it comes into being, will certainly rise to the occasion and justify this transfer of power, this transfer of jurisdiction, from the Privy Council.

Now, so far as the jurisdiction of the Privy Council being allowed to continue even after the 10th October is concerned, I am sure that on the date on which we declare India to be a Republic, if any appeals are pending before it, they would be automatically transferred to the Supreme Court. Already there is a provision in the Transitory Provisions of our Constitution that all such appeals would stand automatically transferred to the Supreme Court.

Sir, I have great pleasure in congratulating the honourable Member that at least now he has thought it fit to bring forward this legislation. With this, the last link with the British will be going. When the British came, they tried to exercise jurisdiction over us, instead of allowing us to settle our own affairs. That link is broken now. I congratulate ourselves and I congratulate the honourable the Mover of this Bill for having brought forward this legislation.

Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Sir, I have very great pleasure in supporting the motion that this Bill be now passed. Our connection with the Privy Council for such a long time,is now brought to a close. We must on this occasion pay our homage to the Privy Council which has so greatly helped us in the evolution of our laws during the last'175 years. The great traditions of the Privy Council, its impartiality, it, independence and its other characteristics would now have to be inherited by the Supreme Court, and we hope that the Supreme Court would rise to the same height.

Now, Sir, the system of Great Britain and the system of America which we have copied make it absolutely clear that it is the courts which are the final arbiters of the rights and liberties of the people. If we have adopted that system, it is but meet that our Supreme Court should be a court of final jurisdiction. Many countrymen of ours have taken a prominent part in the deliberations of the Privy Council on the Judicial side as Judges. I am glad that the Drafting Committee has now proposed to abolish the jurisdiction of the Privy Council and conferred that jurisdiction on the Federal Court of the same character as the Privy Council was enjoying.

Now, the- King in any country has some prerogatives. I do not want to say what those prerogatives are, but it is sufficient to say that the King is regarded as the fountain of justice, that he is above 'the law, lie has powers of reprieve and pardon, etc. The same powers are now granted to the President. Even if the courts have convicted a person., the King in his prerogative can grant pardon or reprieve.

There are many cases on the criminal side where the Privy Council in its jurisdiction upheld principles of natural justice and decided cases on such basis. It is true that in criminal matters it interfered with the lower courts on very rare occasions-as I said it was a special kind of jurisdiction-but it was always in the interests of administering justice. I hope, Sir, that nowthat our Federal Court is invested with the same jurisdiction, the Federal Court also would rise to the occasion and do the work which every court is expected to do. Though we have not succeeded in giving our ordinary courts such supremacy over the executive, as we desire, all the same this Bill is a landmark in that it transfers to the Federal Court the jurisdiction which has been so long enjoyed by the Privy Council. I hope this will ensure justice to all individuals. I am happy, Sir, that now all cases in India will be decided by our own courts. Sir, while paying my tribute, I want to place on record our sense of gratitude to the Privy Council which has for such a long time distributed even-handed justice to all.

Mr. President: The question is :

"That the Bill, as settled by the Assembly: be passed."

The motion was adopted.MOTION re TRANSLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION

Shri K. M. Munshi: Mr. President, Sir, I beg to move the resolution which stands in my name :

"Resolved that the President be authorised and requested,to take necessary steps to have a translation of the Constitution prepared in Hindi and to have it published under his authority before January 26. 1950 and also to arrange for the preparation and publication of the translation of the Constitution in such other major languages of India as he deems fit."

Sir, the House is fully aware of the steps that were taken by you with regard to having a Hindi translation of the Constitution. In 1947 a Committee was appointed, with my honourable Friend, Shri Ghanshyam Singh Gupta as Chairman. That Committee produced a Hindi draft. Later, at the request of the Steering Committee, Sir, you were pleased to appoint an Expert Committee on the 15th March 1949 for the purpose of revising that Constitution. The members of that Committee, as is known to the House, were distinguished scholars associated with literary activities in different provinces in India. The members of the Committee were Shri Ghanshyam Singhji (Chairman), Mr. Rahul Sankrityayana, ex-President of the Hindi Sammelan, Mr. Suniti Kumar Chatterjee, one of the greatest experts on Indo-Aryan languages in India, Sri M. Satyanarayana, a gentleman who more than any other single person has done the utmost to spread the Hindi language in the South, Mr. Jayachandra Vidyalankar and Mr. Date, a well-known authority in Marathi. This Committee has revised the other translation; it is in the press and a considerable section of the House expected that the translation would have been completed in time to be placed before this House. But several difficulties are in the way. The time is not sufficient; it would also involve the Constituent Assembly meeting even after the November Session if that version is to come before this House; and the costs also will be disproportionate. In view of these factors, it is much better that the translation, after it has been revised either by you, Sir, or as it is produced by this Expert Committee, or revised by any other agency that you might think proper, may be published under your authority. It is absolutely necessary that on the 26th of January we should have a translation in Hindi published under your authority, the reason being that no sooner this Constitution is passed on the 26th of January, all the Indian languages will require some basic glossary and some basic translation for the purpose of adopting it in the different languages. At present what happens is, that in every province newspapers are translating the words in theConstitution in any way they like. Some translations are extraordinarily funny and some are accurate, but it is necessary that the whole of our constitutional terminology should

be published in some kind on authorized form, so that the translations in our languages may become easy. Once this constitutional phraseology becomes current, once there is one translation published in Hindi, it will be very easy to have a common terminology throughout the country. Not only that, but if there are going to be any further authorized versions, it will provide 'a basis for that purpose. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary that we should have this translation.

One thing more, and I have done. The experts on this Committee are in their own respective spheres the best that India could produce and no doubt their translation would be of a character which will command weight all over the country. Some expression of opinion is found in some papers that the translation is likely to be very heavy. Now that is a matter of opinion, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how there can be any version of our Constitution in any Indian language without our having to coin new words to express the legal and constitutional concepts which we have expressed in English in this Constitution. In all our languages, except Sanskrit, there is no complete vocabulary of legal and constitutional terms. Even the Sanskrit Vocabulary is inadequate and we may have to coin new words in order to express certain modem concepts of constitutional law. Therefore, it is inevitable, I submit, that whichever the translation, it will have to be largely drawn from Sanskrit. I find that there is a considerable prejudice amongst certain classes of people in this country who seem to think that even constitutional and legal terminology could be so framed as to be accessible to what is called the 'common man'. Nowhere in the world has a complex constitution like this bristling in every section with different constitutional aspects been worded in easy or so popular language as to be accessible to the common man. Even among our lawyers, I am sure many phrases that have been used in this Constitution,-phrases which have been borrowed from the American or the English Constitution-are such as are not easily accessible to an ordinary lawyer and not even accessible to lawyers of considerable standing. They are strange words to them unless they familiarize themselves with constitutional law; much more so in language like ours; and I think it is necessary that our new terminology should be largely drawn from Sanskrit introduced in words or words which are framed on the basis of Sanskrit roots. As soon as that is done, I am sure it will provide a nucleus for not only consolidating the phraseology of all our Indian languages, but lay the foundation of the new Hindi, the lines of development of which this House decided upon three days ago. With these words, I commend this resolution for the acceptance of the House.

Shri H. V. Kamath (C.P. & Berar: General): Mr. President, Sir, while supporting generally the motion moved by my honourable Friend, Mr. K. M. Munshi just now, may I place before the House certain amendments to this motion ? I am sorry, Sir, that because this agenda was received only last night., I could not give notice of the amendments in time, with the result that my honourable colleagues have, not got copies of the amendments.

I shall now therefore read them out one by one.

"(1) That in the motion, for the words 'the President be authorised and requested to the words 'the President do be substituted.

(2) That in the motion for the words and figures "before January 26, 1950" the words 'as speedily as possible" be substituted.

(3) That in the motion, for the words "the preparation and publication", the words "the early preparation and publication" be substituted. [Shri H. V. Kamath]

(4) That in the motion. for the words "other major languages", the words "other languages" be substituted."

If these amendments were accepted by the House, the motion would read as follows :-

" Resolved that the President do take necessary steps to have the translation of the Constitution prepared in Hindi and to have it published under his

authority as speedily as possible and also to arrange for the early preparation and publication of the translation of the Constitution in such other languages of India as he deems fit."

'Taking amendment No. (1), I feet Sir, that the expression used in Mr.Munshi's motion is somewhat clumsy. When the House adopts a resolution, ipso facto the President is authorized in pursuance' of that resolution. It is not necessary to state in a Resolution that the President is authorized to do such and such a thing. We resolve that the President do take steps and that itself is an authorization and a request; and 1, therefore, feel that the words "authorization and request"' are unnecessary for the purpose of this motion, and moreover they detract from the dignity of a motion to be adopted by this House.

As regards amendment No. (3) which seeks to insert the words "early preparation and publication," I need not dilate upon this much. I believe that Mr. Munshi intends, and the House also intends, that the translation will be done early in other languages too, I only wish to make it very clear that this matter or this translation in other languages will not be postponed indefinitely.

Shri B. Das: Sanskrit also.

Shri H. V, Kamath : My amendment is for the addition of the word "early' and it is a slightly substantial amendment too; but I leave it to the collective wisdom of the Drafting Committee to incorporate it in such manner as they deem fit.

In the last amendment, I wish to substitute "other languages" for the words other major languages". After all, who are we to say here which language is major and which language is minor? We have not adopted any motion or even an article on the various languages; nor have we stated in any schedule which language is major and which minor. If we adopt the motion as moved by Mr. Munshi to the effect that the translation will be in such major languages as the President may deem fit, suppose the translation is not done in some particular language, naturally the people of the country speaking that particular language will feel hurt that theirs is considered a minor language and therefore it has been omitted. It will have a bad psychological effect. To avoid any invidious distinction between one language and another, I wish to delete the word "'major " and say, that the President shall order translation in such languages as he deems fit, leaving the matter to him to decide. It is not for us to say here which is a major language and in which major language or languages the President may order translation of this Constitution. The interruptions of my friends Mr. B. Das and Mr. Chaliha also show which way the wind is blowing. They also feel hurt as to the incorporation of the word 'major'. Suppose, for instance, Assamese is not included by the President,-I do not mean to suggest that it will be excluded,-or Oriya is excluded, they will feel that theirs is not a major language. Therefore, the best thing is to delete the word 'major' and say "such other languages as the President may deem fit".

Coming to amendment No. 2 by means of which I seek to substitute the expression "before January 26, 1950" by the words "as speedily as possible" I have to advance two or three arguments in support of this amendment. Firstly. the House will recollect that on the closing day of the last session, we adopted a resolution about the next General election, the preparation of electoral rolls and other ancillary matters. The argument was put forth even on that occasion thatit is not proper to bind the House to a particular date ; and Dr. Ambedkar had to admit in his reply to that debate that if for some reason or other we were unable to prepare the electoral rolls early enough and if therefore the elections were to be postponed beyond the end of 1950, we will have to state 'our reasons, bring another motion before the House and thereby get the 'original motion amended. Therefore, it is not wise I think to specify any definite, date. I hope, may, I am almost sure, that the Committee which the President will set

up win strenuously labour at this task of translation and get the translation ready even before, long before the 26th of January. But, there is many a slip between the cup and the lip and unforeseen circumstance at times arise which upset the plans of men. Therefore, I think it would be the part of wisdom to delete any reference to any particular date and just say, as speedily as possible'. It may be ready even in a month's time. If you fix a date, it is likely that it may be published just the day before, the 25t of January. That would be within the ambit of the motion which we are discussing.

I would however request and I would plead strongly that the Hindi translation of this Constitution must be ready long before January 26, 1950, even within a month or six weeks, so that if possible, this Hindi translation of the Constitution may be brought before the House during the Third Reading of the Constitution. For that purpose, I would not mind even if the Third Reading is so adjusted that it falls, say in early December or even early January. When once we have passed the Second Reading of the Constitution and the Electoral rolls are being prepared at a pretty fast pace in the country, there Is no reason why we should hustle the Third Reading of the Constitution before the Hindi Translation is ready.

We have adopted Hindi as the State Language and Official language of the Union only two days ago. It is therefore only right and proper, and in the fitness of things that at the Hindi translation at any rate the State language translation should come before the House at the Third Reading of the Constitution. For that purpose, I would suggest that the Third Reading of the Constitution be postponed to early December or, even early January; and we can be ready with the final draft in English and Hindi before the 26th of January. V unfortunately something happens, some circumstances arise owing to which we cannot adopt the constitution, and promulgate or inaugurate our republic on the 26th of January 1950, 1 feel there is no reason to feel any compunction on that score because to my mind, though the 26th of January has got its own sanctity as being the Independence Day on which twenty years ago we took the pledge of Independence, yet it is conceivable, it is likely that we may have yet another date in our National Calender. After the 15th of August 1947, last year and even this year, the 26th of January has been observed as Remembrance Day and not as Independence Day. Now, if this Constitution proceeds at its usual pace we need not hurry it up just to synchronise it with independence Day, the 26th of January. I have no objection to that date : I would welcome that date.But, if it is not finished by that day, we can have a new date in our National Calendar, call it the Republic Day..........

Mr. President: You are discussing a subject which is not germane to the motion.

Shri H. V. Kamath : The date, January 26, is there mentioned in the motion I thought that has reference to Independence Day. I am not dilating on it: I only feel that we may have a new date in our National Calendar, call it a Republic Day and celebrate it annually. I only feel that the Hindi Translation of the Constitution must be before the House during the 'Third Reading of the Constitution, especially, in view of the fact that Hindi has been adopted as the State language, the official language of the Union just a few days ago. If the Third Reading is passed without the Hindi Translation before the House, I think we would be doing a wrong to this very House which has adopted this language asthe State language and official language of the Union. I commend my various amendments to the House for their consideration and acceptance.

The Honourable Shri Ghanshyam Singh Gupta (C.P. & Berar : General), Mr. President, Sir, I stand here to support the motion of Shri K. M. Munshi but I must confess that I am not very happy over it. If I had my way. I would very much have liked that the Hindi version of the Constitution also could have been adopted by this

House. It was also your desire that the version in the official language of the Union should be passed by the House but there were obvious difficulties also. The question of the official language was not decided earlier and therefore the time left is very short. If earlier decision had been taken about the official language of the Union, then it would have been more easy for us to pass the Constitution in our own national language also. But as it is, it seems to me that this is probably the best under the circumstances.

But, Sir, I appeal to the House about one thing. There is no doubt that we have decided that English shall go. It shall go during the period of fifteen years or earlier and in some respects it might take a longer time, but when English goes and English is replaced in the Centre by our official language Hindi, then at that time we will only be left with the authoritative text of the Constitution in English and only a translation in Hindi. I would very much wish that the Steering Committee and Dr. Ambedkar in their deep wisdom might find a way in which we could say that the provision is there that we have our authoritative version of the Constitution also in Hindi which can be used say after about fifteen years. As the resolution stands by itself, even after twenty or twenty-five years we would only have the translation. It will not have the sanctity which attaches to a Constitution adopted by the House. It will be absent in the translation in our national official language Hindi.

What I would very much request Dr. Ambedkar and the Drafting Committee to consider is to find out a formula by which some day we may be able to say that this Constitution which is in Hindi has the sanctity of the Constitution passed by the House itself and not merely that of a translation. There is section 304 but then I find that that section would not be quite sufficient for the purpose. If the Drafting, Committee could draft another provision in this Constitution itself by which some such provision is made that after English ceases to be the official language of the Union, we may have our Constitution in Hindi adopted by the Union Parliament to which the same sanctity could be attached as it it was passed by the House, I would be very happy. This is the side of the case which I must humbly but most emphatically wish to bring to the notice of the Drafting Committee. I am sure that the ingenuity of the Drafting Committee will evolve a formula by which this would be possible and our sons and grandsons will not be left in the position in which they will say that there is no such,thing as sanctified Constitution in our national language, and the Sanctified constitution is only in the English language. That will not be very credit. able for us. Even a small country like Ireland drafted their Constitution in both the languages, in their own language and in the English language. But they took very early steps and therefore it was possible. I do understand and realize the difficulties but I would appeal that a way should be found out in which what have said may be possible.

Now I have the good fortune of being associated with the Hindi translation from the very beginning and I know the difficulties of translation. Therefore I do realise that our words have to be settled. They have to get implications and that is bound to take some time. I will not like to take the time of the House to show as to how we are proceeding with this translation. In choosing of a vocabulary which has any technical significance we take good care that the vocabulary is such as is acceptable not only to the Hindi area but to all the regional languages of the country-Marathi, Bengali, Gujarati and the languagesof the South. Any word which is not acceptable to Shri Satyanarayanji or to Dr. Chatterjee or to Shri Date, we reject. We take words which are unanimously agreed upon so that we may have the basis for future terminology of technical term,, (so far as the Constitution is concerned) not only for Hindi but for all the major languages of India. 'And our

difficulties have been very very great indeed. I can tell this House what I have often told you that I have never devoted so much time, so much energy and so much attention even as a student in any of my studies, as I have devoted to the work which you were pleased to entrust to me and my colleagues. I support the motion.

Dr. P. S. Deshmukh (C.P. & Berar: General) : Mr. President, I mug con. fess I am somewhat unable to understand the purpose and necessity of this resolution. We are going to request and authorise the President to take necessary steps to have a translation of the Constitution. I do not think your authority was limited even as the President of this Assembly, to have a translation not only in the Hindi language but in the various languages of India. Secondly, this authority does not mean that the translation the President is going to get prepared is going to be the authorised translation. If this resolution was at all necessary, it should have been provided that any such translation which the President will promulgate shall be the authorised and recognised translation of the Constitution.

My second difficulty is, I do not know when the President is going to come into being. If the Constitution is to be promulgated on the 26th January, 1950, then what is the sense in saying that the translation' should be prepared before that date ? I do not conceive,. that unless this Constitution comes into being and is promulgated, the President- can come , into existence. If the President cannot come into existence. before 26th January, 1950, what kind of translation is to be published before that date I am unable to understand.

Shri R. V. Sidhva (C.P. & Berar: General) : The President of the Constituent Assembly is already there.

Dr. P. S. Deshmukh: If it is the President of the Constituent Assembly, then I beg pardon. I took him to be the President of the Union. If it is the President of the Constituent Assembly, who is meant I do not think the resolution is necessary. The work of translation is already going on and we can provide that the translation prepared by the President, or published by or through him should be the official translation which shall be recognised by everybody,

Then Sir, I think there is no necessity for the changes which have been suggested by my friend Mr. Kamath. 'The wording as it stands would probably serve the purpose. But in any case, the word "major" should be altered, or omitted 'altogether. It is especially difficult to define what are major and minor in this connection. It is not the phraseology we have accepted anywhere and it is therefore better to omit the word altogether.

Then I support the suggestion made by Mr. Gupta 'so far as accepting the translation as the only version of the Constitution, at some date or the other, and the sooner it is done the better. If it is our intention that after fifteen years period Hindi should be recognised as the only official language, that it should be used more and more, then the best place where it should be brought into use is the law courts I am sorry to see that in the various law courts and in the High court, English is to language in use. I differ very vehemently on this point. The language in the law courts is very important because it results in so many other things. If the, law courts are to use English, the lawyers will perforce have to be proficient in English and there will be so many others who will have to give preference to English. Therefore having the Constitution in Hindi and recognising it as the onlycorrect version is very important from many more points of view than the point of view of convenience only. And if it is our intention that Hindi should be recognised more and more, it should be possible for the President of the Union to declare that from such and such date, the English version of the Constitution shall cease to have effect and that the Hindi Constitution will be the only one to be referred to and interpreted by law courts. I think this suggestion is very welcome and I hope it will be possible for Mr.

Munshi to accept it.

Seth Govind Das (C.P. & Berar: General) : "[Mr. President, Sir, I am very much dissatisfied with the resolution moved by Mr. Munshi. You might remember that years back I raised the question of adopting the Constitution in our National language. Whenever the Constituent Assembly met in session and I got an opportunity of speaking, I placed before you the proposal that' our Constitution should be adopted in our own language, You might remember that whenever I raised this question you gave the assurances that the Constitution to be adopted will be in our own language. The resolution moved in the House means that the Constitution will be translated into Hindi. It will only be a translation and not the original one. When English is going to be altogether banished. I fail to understand how we will carry on our work if the original draft of our Constitution would be in English.

This resolution means that we still want to maintain English on the same pedestal which it occupied during our slavery. I want to tell you that whatever difficulties we may be conronted with, we feel even today that the original draft of our Constitution should be in our national language.

We have been meeting in this Constituent Assembly for the last three years, it was after thousands of years that we got an opportunity to have this Constituent Assembly. Is it not possible for us to meet for a month more for this work ? If we cannot meet now, we can do so after some time. We want to adopt the Constitution on the 26th of January next, and we have sufficient time at our disposal. During this period we can set aside a month to adopt our Constitution in Hindi. The resolution put forward by the Steering Committee in this regard was altogether different from the resolution moved by Mr. Munshi today.

We know that there are a number of Members in the Constituent Assembly who do not understand Hindi, but I would like to say that there are sonic Members also who do not understand English. A number of Members do not understand many words used in the Constitution. It is possible that when we shall place before this House our constitution in Hindi, many of its words also would not be understood by a number of 'Members. But this is no argument for not adopting the Constitution in Hindi. When we are adopting the Constitution in English, even though a number of Members do not understand many of its words, there should be no difficulty on the same ground to adopt our Constitution in Hindi also. When we have accepted Hindi as the franca, as the State language it is very necessary that our original draft. of the Constitution should be passed in Hindi after the English version of the Constitution is adopted. 'It should not be a translation. It should be the original Draft. The Constitution in English too be brought into force together with it as is the case in Ireland. I want to say with emphasis that the original draft of the Constitution should be framed in our own language and if there is any difference anywhere in our original draft and the English draft, the original draft should be taken as authentic and not the English draft.

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*[] Translation of Hindustani speech.

This is a question of our prestige. This is a question of our national prestige. Ours is a vast Country and it has a big population. It has an old history and old culture. If after the dawn of freedom in such country its Constitution is not framed in the language of the country, it would be a matter of deep and unlimited humiliation and shame for us. I am very much dissatisfied with the resolution moved by Mr. Munshi, and I want to tell you that the time has cot= for fulfilling the promise made by you at the time we commenced our work. At that time it was said that so long as the question of the national language is not decided this cannot be done. Now the question of the national language has been solved and there is no difficulty in fulfilling that promise. Whatever has been done in this House from beginning to end in

regard to Hindi has not been right. The effect of all that has been that there is discontent among the people and they are taking no interest in our work, although the people of a free country should take sufficient interest in the framing of their constitution. If we do not adopt originally our Constitution in our national language, there is bound to be discontent among the people and they would take absolutely no interest in the Constitution.

In the life of a nation such difficulties present themselves- many times,- and I appeal to you that it should be the primary duty of our leaders to solve these difficulties. Whatever may be the difficulties we should remain firm and stick to our ideas and objectives. ' At the outset the Steering Committee had accepted that our Constitution should be framed in Hindi and that a Committee of the House should be appointed to formulate it. We should sit for a month and consider all the Drafts that have been prepared so far and should adopt our Constitution in our national language.]

Shri R. K. Sidhva: Mr. President, Sir, I wholeheartedly support the motion moved by Mr. Munshi. I attach great importance to the publication of this Constitution in various languages, particularly in Hindi. I also attach even greater importance that this Constitution in the various languages should be published particularly on the 26th January, 1950. We have adopted Hindi as our national language and to publish only the English version on the 26th January, and the Hindi one later as was suggested by Mr. Kamath, would not be proper. It is essential that the two must be published simultaneously. I would even wish that the publication in the various other languages, I mean the fourteen languages which we have passed in the Schedule must also be done as early as possible. But I know the difficulties you, Sir, will be confronted with. Therefore it has been said that the English and Hindi versions shall be published by the 26th January, and as for the others, it has been left to you to see that they are brought out as early as possible. A very large number of people who could really take advantage of reading this Constitution in their languages should be enabled to do so. Therefore, the translation of the Constitution in these languages should be published as early as possible. I hope it is not intended by "such other major languages of India" that the Constitution should be restricted only to a few languages. The major language means those who would the larger number.

At an earlier stage we had stated in this Constituent Assembly that the Draft Constitution should be given the widest publicity and I think you, Sir, also stated that a very large number of copies will be published. But I may state that in January of this year I was addressing a public meeting on the Constitution. Visitors after visitors stated that they applied to your office and also to the book-sellers and to the Bombay Government but they could not get any copy. I found on enquiry that all the copies were exhausted.

Dr. P. S. Deshmukh: Are you referring to the English copies or to the translation?

Shri R. K. Sidhva: I am referring to the English copies. We had stated that the people should take interest in the matter, acquaint themselves with it and as a matter of fact express their opinions through the medium of the press and also by sending them to the office of the Constituent Assembly. I do not know how many copies were printed. I make a suggestion that a very large number of copies of the Constitution in English and Hindi should be published on the 26th January so that everyone who so desires should be able to get a copy.

I would also make one other suggestion that you, Sir, on your behalf and on behalf of this Assembly should give a short synopsis of what we have done during these three years and what are the special features of the Constitution. It should be available both in Hindi and English. That will be interesting and people would like to read it.

As regards the suggestion made by my Friends Seth Govind Das and Shri Ghanshyam Singh Gupta I do appreciate that this Constitution in Hindi should have come here. But it is really difficult if you want to go clause by clause. And it has to go clause by clause-every Member has a right to discuss the Constitution clause by clause in Hindi as we have passed it in English. Of course they cannot make any special suggestions now. But in regard to the translation there are many experts in Hindi here. They will say 'this word is not suitable, this should be there' and they have a right to say so. I do not agree with Seth Govind Das that it can be done in- one month. It will take six months if you want to pass through all the stages.

While I admit the force of the argument I would like to make a suggestion. Eventually the Hindi Constitution will prevail because within fifteen years or after fifteen years English will go. Therefore we must have a duly authenticated Constitution in Hindi. It will not be the version that you will be publishing. In my opinion something has to be done and that is later on it has to go to Parliament for this purpose. The Hindi translation of the Constitution must be an authenticated translation for the purposes of interpretation in the Supreme Court. Where there is a difference of opinion in the interpretation it is very necessary. I do appreciate that point of view. Now only the English Constitution will be there for the purpose of interpretation. But English has to go. Therefore the Hindi translation must be an authenticated one. This Constituent Assembly will be dissolved and therefore it cannot meet. My suggestion therefore is that some arrangement should be made for this purpose. If it is necessary to be made a clause in this Constitution I have no objection. But the matter must go to Parliament and Parliament must have the power to pass that Hindi translation.

I appreciate that Hindi now having been recognized the Hindi translation should have the fullest support of this Constituent Assembly, that is to say, the Third Reading of the Constitution in Hindi should have been passed by the Constituent Assembly. But practical difficulties come and it will not be possible for us to bring in this Constitution on the 26th of January, 1950. I strongly support the motion and I hope you will bear this little suggestion of mine that it will be very much appreciated if you attach a little brochure explaining what we did for three years, what immense work we had to do, how we had to change clause after clause and article after article, and what an amount of effort and work has been done by the Constituent Assembly. Let it not be misunderstood by the public that we have wasted so much time. On the contrary I consider that if we have lengthened the period of this Assembly it is for the advantage of the country. What we did in 1948, half of it we have scrapped now. After gaining experience and after mature consideration we have introduced many important articles. I very much appreciate that. I am not at all sorry-I am glad that the period has beensomehow, by God's act, extended. It was not the desire of the Members of this Assembly that the period should thus be extended. We had wanted to pass it earlier in 1948. But God preferred that it should be extended. It is very good that at) a result of this extension, after full consideration and in the light of the experience that we gained in the country, we have been able to change many of the articles.

With these words I strongly support the motion. Mr. President : Mr. B. Das.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Sir, the question may now be put.

Mr. President: I have already called Mr. Das.

Shri B. Das: Sir, I support the resolution moved by my honourable Friend Mr. Munshi. I do hope he will see the points brought forward by my Friend Mr. Kamath and accept his third and, fourth amendments. I do not like my Friend Mr. Kamath asking us to pass a resolution that the President "do take the necessary steps". The President has been our mouthpiece, the embodiment of our conscience, the embodiment of the spirit of this House

over the sovereign Constitution which we have framed. Whenever any contacts take place with the outside world it is the President that has represented all our sovereign rights, all our conscience, all our hearts, and corresponded with them. So it is not for me to say that the President "do this". If I had drafted this I would have done away with the words "The President be authorised". I would have only said that "the President be requested to take necessary steps" and that satisfies me because we have trusted him and he will carry out the will and the wishes of this sovereign Houses as our chosen head and as our mouth-piece.

As regards the suggestion, which has also been supported by Mr. Sidhva and Dr. Deshmukh that the translation should be. made available in all the languages that have been included in the Schedule as early as possible. I would suggest a modus operandi for that. We find that whenever any Bill is introduced in the Parliament at once the Provincial Governments take steps to translate it in the Provincial languages and circularise' it or publish it in their gazettes. So, if the Honourable the President can take advantage of the existing machinery of the various Provincial Governments, then the translations in the languages of course the translation. in regard to Hindi will be the official version that will come from my friend the Honourable Sjt. Ghanshyam Singh Gupta-but the translation in the other languages could easily be done within a month's time and then on the 26th of January 1950 all these translations-in Oriya, Assamese, Bengali, Gujerati, Telugu, Tamil. Kannada and every other language of the fourteen languages-will be avail able. Whether a translation in Sanskrit will be available I do not know. We will have to approach the various Pandits headed by my Friend Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra and ask them whether they can work over it and produce a translation for the Pandits that inhabit the sacred places of India. But I do hope my Friend Mr. Munshi will accept Mr. Kamath's suggestion, modified by Mr. Sidhva, of having the translations in the other languages as described in the Schedule to the Constitution.

Sir, I will echo the feelings of the House if I say that the House is grateful to MY honourable Friend the Honourable Sjt. Ghanshyam Singh Gupta for the labour and efforts that he has devoted to the Hindi translation. Whether it will be the accepted version ten years hence I cannot say, but it must be the accepted version in the country from the date it is published by your orders. But as regards the suggestion of my Friend Seth Govind Das that the Constituent Assembly should be prolonged infinitely and should pass the Hindi version, Sir, though I agree with the sentiment I do not agree with the Proposal. Although the Constituent Assembly has continued for three yearsand we are hoping that on the 26th January next we will declare a Republic when this Constitution will be promulgated, still to quote Mr. Kamath, "there is many a slip between the cup and lip". We saw two years ago tile people of France had three Constituent Assemblies; they drafted three Constitution,, they are carrying on their faltering existence in some way on the 3rd draft.

Whether this Constitution will outlive all times, I cannot say. Already I hear criticisms from my friends the Socialists and from those who have gone underground, I mean the Communists, that they do not like this Constitution at all. We are not for all times going to be the Government India-the Socialists are bound, to step in, though they will have to learn to acquire Inc capacity for administration of the Governments. They are mostly busy criticising the Congress and its ways-most of them were Congress members at one tune or another. So, the Constitution may not be a permanent thing. Even if fifteen years hence from January 26th a Hindi version is necessary as the statutory and authorised version, by that time I believe so many amendments will have taken place in the very Constitution that it will be desirable to have the authorised translation in

Hindi then. Perhaps then a new Constituent Assembly may be elected, not on the basis of franchise as the present Constituent Assembly was created but perhaps every State will send two or three representatives who will sit down and adopt the authorised Hindi version of the Constitution. But at present it will remain an educative version, it will not have any legal or statutory binding on the people. The very lawyers that preponderate in our country will seldom quote the Hindi version; they will always quote the authorised version of the English text which this House has passed.

So, that is not a very dreadful matter to me and I hope time and. experience will evolve the proper form of the Hindi language so that a proper, authorised Hindi translation will be evolved at least ten years hence, when I anticipate that language will be accepted all over India as the national language and then that version of the Hindi text will be accepted as authorised text. Of course I admire his sentiment that he wants that the, Hindi version should be an authorised version which this House is not at present in a mood to sit longer and pass.

Seth Govind Das: But when will it come ?

Shri B. Das: It will come ten years hence and I will not be there, you will be there.

Sir, I do appeal to you, and we are putting our trust and confidence in you in this matter to see that the thirteen languages excluding English-I do not know if Sanskrit will come in-will have their own version and they will all be published on the 26th January next so that the countryside will know in detail as to what we did by sitting long hours, what are the rights and privileges that are conferred on them by the Constitution and what hopes they can cherish under our Independent Republican Government.

Mr. President: Closure has been moved and so I will put it to vote.

The question is:

"That the question be now put."

The motion was adopted.

Shri K. M. Munshi: Mr. President, Sir, I will first deal with the amendments moved by my Friend Mr. Kamath. I am very sorry that I am not able to accept any of his amendments. As regards the first amendment, the words"authorized and requested' have been appropriately. used, firstly because the word "do" is mandatory and with reference to our President I do not think it appropriate to use a word like that, and secondly because theword "authorized" has been used after considerable deliberation. I would have been extremely glad if the translation had been placed before this House and accepted as an authorized version of the Constitution. But as things were, it was not possible to do so.

Seth Govind Das: May I ask one question of my Friend Mr. Munshi? Is it not a fact that the Steering Committee first decided that a Committee of this house should be appointed which will go into the question and consider that translation and then that that translation should be brought here and considered as the original version?

Shri K. M. Munshi: It is an open secret, I moved those resolutions. I was keen that we should have the version accepted by the House, but the circumstances are such that it is not possible for us to do so-at least that is the view of the bulk of the Member of the House. Whatever my personal view may be or whatever the view of my honourable Friend Seth Govind Das may be, the general opinion of the House is that it is not possible to do so. Therefore, we have to accept the best possible substitute, namely, we are delegating that authority of publishing a translation to the President himself. It is a perfectly legitimate way of doing things in view of our difficulty. My Friend Seth Govind Das in his enthusiasm forgot what Mr. Sidhva said. My honourable Friend. Mr. Sidhva thinks that this version should be placed before the House and carried through, article by article, clause by clause, with the numerous amendments which the Members of this Assembly might bring forward...

Seth Govind Das: I say it can be done.

Shri K. M. Munshi: Well, it =not be done in less than 12 months because I can assure my Friend Seth Govind Das that whatever he may think about himself or whatever I may think about my capacity to translate there are quite a large number of Members here who share my Friend Mr. Sidhva's opinion that they are great experts even in the matter of translating a highly technical subject.

Seth Govind Das: I tee that if you bring it up it will be passed within a month.

Shri K. M. Munshi: I am not prepared to accept that view and my learned Friend need not spend his enthusiasm on the subject, but I do say that we have to reckon with Members here like my Friend Mr. Sidhva. I have suggested the best possible substitute and that accords with the general views so far as I have been able to ascertain. We do not need a discussion, in a popular House like this, on the niceties of language. It is much better that it should be left to the President to get such expert advice as he thinks proper and to produce a translation which, though-not approved by the House, is approved by the experts he wants.

Seth Govind Das: The same thing as was done for English may be done for Hindi also,

Shri K. M. Munshi: Sir, I have said it once and I am prepared to repeat it again that I am carrying out the general wishes of the Members of the House.

Shri Mahavir Tyagi: ( United Provinces: General) : Can you not use the word "version" instead of the word "translation" ?

Shri K. M. Munshi: I would have been very glad to do it, were it not untrue. What we are doing is a translation. 'Version' means really-speaking re-writing the whole thing in an independent manner. This is a translation. Let us pass through the stage of translation. Then we can have an independent version of the Constitution, which it will be open to the Parliament to accept as the authorised version.

Shri Govind Das : Are you going to move any such resolution that the original version may be passe by Parliament ?

Shri K. M. Munshi: I am afraid it will take an unduly long time of the House if I were to answer my honourable Friend's query.

The next amendment is of Mr. Kamath's who wants to substitute the words "as speedily as possible" for the words and figures "before January 26, 1950". 1 would feel happy if we could do it before the 26th of January, because after all it is a very technical and difficult work and cannot be turned out like cotton piece goods.

In regard to Mr. Kamath's third amendment, I see no reason to suppose that this preparation would not be done with convenient despatch.

In his fourth amendment Mr. Kamath wants the words "other major languages" to be substituted by the words "other languages". The position is this. There are many more languages in India than the fourteen that were enumerated in the Schedule to the chapter on the national language. Among the fourteen languages we have included a language like the 'Kashmiri' which, I am told, is spoken by not more than ten lakhs of people. Now, it may be that some of these languages are not in use in courts. If that is so, there is no reason why there should be a translation in that language. The whole object is that this translation should be available to all persons who will be dealing with the Constitution either in courts of law or in schools or colleges, or to people who want to familiarise themselves with the constitutional concepts embodied in the Constitution.

Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra (West Bengal: General) : The, Provincial Governments may be entrusted with the work of translation into different languages.

Shri K. M. Munshi: The President has been given the discretion to select such languages as he considers to be the major ones. It may be a waste to spend money on translation into, take, for instance 'Cutchi'. 'Cutchi' is a sort of language, though all Cutchies speak Gujerathi. Why should there be a translation in 'Cutchi' ?

Some Honourable Members : 'Cutchi' is not a language.

Shri K. M. Munshi: Therefore we must give the President full discretion to deal with this matter, 1, therefore, request the House to accept this motion.

Shri H. V. Kamath : Is my honourable Friend aware that the Irish Constitution was adopted in Irish as well as in English by Eire in 1937 ?

Mr. President: It does not matter. That will not solve the problem even if he is aware of it. I shall now put the amendments to vote.

Mr. President: The question is :

That in the motion, for the words 'the President be authorised and requested to' the words 'the President do' be substituted"

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: The question is :

'That in the motion, for the words and figures 'before January 26, 1950,' the words as speedily as possible' be substituted."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: The question is :

"That in the motion. for the words 'the preparation and publication' the words 'the early preparation and publications, be substituted."The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: The question is:

"That in the motion, for the words 'other major languages' the words 'other languages' be substituted."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: The question is:

"Resolved that the President be authorised and requested to take necessary steps to have a translation of the Constitution prepared in Hindi and to have it published under his authority before January 26, 1950, and also to arrange for the preparation and publication of the translation of the Constitution in such other major languages of India as he deems fit.

The motion was adopted.

Mr. President: Now that the Assembly has adopted this resolution I wish to say a few words, because it now falls, upon me to implement it and I want the assistance and co-operation of the Members of this House, as also of others who may be interested in this subject. to help me in implementing it. So far as the Hindi translation is concerned, it has made considerable headway under the Chairmanship of Shri Ghanshyam Singh Gupta. We shall see how far that translation is acceptable and we shall also consider in that connection how far the particular expressions which have been used for technical words are acceptable to most of the languages of the country. For example, we have a word like "assembly" which is translated in different ways in different languages. It would be in the interests of the development of the country as a whole if we could have one uniform vocabulary for such expressions, at any, rate for those parts of the country where the languages spoken are of Sanskritic origin.

In appointing the Committee which is now working on the Hindi translation, I took care to have representatives from different parts of the country and people who might be considered more or less as authorities on the subject. Even then I shall take further care to see to it that the expressions which are adopted finally are such as will, as far as possible, be acceptable to all the languages.

I, therefore, suggest to honourable Members present here who represent practically all the provinces and all the languages to give me some names. They should, in the first instance, discuss amongst themselves so that I might be able to say that these are the names suggested by the representatives of the various languages spoken in the country who are Members of the Assembly. Take, for example, our Tamil-speaking Friends. I would expect them to give me one or two names; I would expect the Telugu-speaking Friends to give me one or two names; I would expect the Bengali-speaking Friends to give me one or two names. Similarly if all the Members representing the various provinces and the languages will give me the names I would make a selection and appoint a Committee which will sit and finalise the vocabulary, so far as the constitutional and technical terms are concerned. If that is once accepted ....

Sardar Hukam Singh (East Punjab: Sikh) : What about Punjabi-speaking areas ?

Mr. President: I have mentioned only two or three, by way of example. You are certainly welcome to give me the names you like.

If that vocabulary is once accepted, our work will become very easy. Then the translation will be a running thing which can be easily done.I Propose also to address the various Provincial Governments to assist me with the co-operation of their Translation Departments and any experts that they may have in their own employ. If I get these names soon, I think the work of translation could be expedited.

I believe there are many translations already made in various languages. Those translations might also be utilised and I would request Members who have information about those translations to give me information with regard to them.

Shri V. I. Muniswamy Pillai (Madras: General): May I know when the tram selection will be over?

Mr.. President: As soon as possible. But there is this difficulty which the House will bear in mind. We have not finalised the Constitution as a whole. There are still many articles which have to pass the Second Reading stage. Whatever translation is prepared now will be only with regard to the articles which have been finalised so far as the Second Reading is concerned. There may be some changes made further, but they will be only minor changes.

As regards the Hindi I translation that work is proceeding on the basis of the articles finalised from day to day in the House. There is no other translation being prepared in that sense under our authority. But now that you have asked to get translations prepared in other languages also, I think this is the best course I can adopt in the circumstances. I hope the House will give me authority and approval to this plan.

Shri K. M. Munshi: May I respectfully suggest that, if Members can give the names by this evening, then it will be possible for you to announce the names this evening ?

Mr. President: I do not think they will find it convenient to give the names by this evening. I would not limit the time to this evening.

Shri V. I. Muniswamy Pillai: Should the selection of names be confined to the members of this House.

Mr. President: Not necessarily. They may be outsiders also. They should be experts whose translation will be accepted as authoritative in their own languages. I shall have to depend upon the authority which those people carry to get the translation accepted by their own people.

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: Are the translations likely to be long delayed?

Mr. President: They will have to expedite the translations as soon as possible.

Babu Ram Narayan Singh (Bihar: General): In the beginning you announced that the Constitution will be passed in Hindi.

Mr. President: That was my wish and intention, but I find that it has not fructified and it is not possible. That is all I can say. Members are familiar with the events that have happened and the circumstances under which I had to give up that idea.

Article 303.-(contd.)

Mr. President: Now the House will proceed to the next item on the agenda. Consideration of article 303 may be resumed. There are no amendments to sub-clauses (k) and (1). Therefore I will put them to vote. The question is

"That sub-clauses (k) and (1) stand Part of article 303(1).

"The motion was adopted.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I move:

"That after sub-clause (I,) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clauses be inserted namely:-

(II)" High Court" means any court which is deemed for the purposes of this Constitution to be a High Court for any State and includes-

(i) any court in the territory of India constituted or reconstituted ended this Cons titution as a High Court, and

(ii) any other court in the territory of India which may be declared by Parliament by law to be a High Court for all or any of the purposes of this Constitution.

(III) "Indian State" means-

(i) as respects the period before the commencement of this Constitution, any territory which the Government of the dominion of India recognised as such a State; and

(ii) as respects any period after the commencement of this Constitution, any territory not being part of the territory of India which the President recognises as being such a State."'

Mr. President: 'Mere is no amendment to this.

As no one wishes to speak on this I will put it to vote.

The question is:

"That after sub-clause (1) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clauses be inserted, namely :-

(II) "High Court" means any court which is deemed for the purposes of this Constitution to be a High Court for any State and includes-

(i) any court in the territory of India constituted or reconstituted under this Constitution as a High Court, and

(ii) any other court in the territory of India which may be declared by Parliament by law to be a High Court for all or any of the purposes of this Constitution.

(III)"Indian State" means-

(i) as respects the period before the commencement of this Constitution. any territory which the Government of the Dominion of India recognised as such a State; and

(ii) as respects any period after the commencement of this Constitution, any territory not being part of the territory of India which the President recognises as being such a State.' "

The amendment 'Was adopted.

Mr. President: The question is:

"That sub-clause (m) and (n) stand part of article 303(1)".

The motion was adopted.

(Amendment No. 141 was not moved).

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I beg to move:

"That after sub-clause (n) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be inserted, namely :-

(nn) 'Ruler' in relation to a State for the time being specified in Part III of the First Schedule means the person who for the time being is recognised by the President as the Ruler of the State and includes any person for the time being recognized by the President as exercising the powers of the Ruler of the State. and in relation to an Indian State means the Prince, Chief or other person recognised by the Government of the Dominion of India or the President as the Ruler of the State;'"

Mr. President: There is no amendment to this. I will put it to vote.

The question is:

"That after sub-clause (n) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be inserted, namely:-

(nn) 'Ruler' in relation to a State for the time being specified in Part III of the First Schedule means the person who for the time being is recognised by the President as the Ruler of the State and includes any person for the time being recognised by the President as exercising the powers of the Ruler of the State, and in relation to an Indian State means the Prince. Chief or other person recognised by the Government of the Dominion of India or the President as the Ruler of the State;"

The amendment was adopted.

Shri. H. V. Kamath: May I ask Dr. Ambedkar what exactly is the point in mentioning that 'securities' includes stock ? Why not mention shares also?

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: I may mention, Sir, that the word usually used in respect of Government securities is 'stock' by the British Parliament.

Mr. President: There are no amendments to sub-clause 'o'.

Mr. President: The question is :

"That sub-clause (o) stand part of article 303(1)"

The motion was adopted.

Mr. President: I think we had better stop here.

Before we adjourn, there is one thing I desire to mention. I have received a letter addressed to me by Mr. Z. H. Lari, a Member of this Assembly. He has resigned his Membership of this House and in the letter of resignation he has mentioned certain reasons connected with the discussion about the language question which we had the other day. He has asked me that I should read out his letter to the House. I find, however, that before the letter reached me a copy of it was given to the Press and the substance of the letter has already appeared in the newspapers. That being so I do not think it is necessary that I should read out. this letter to the House. Of course I shall take the other action that is necessary in connection with it.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor (United Provinces : General): On a point of order. If this House is going to take any cognisance of this matter, I think the contents of it may as well be discussed, and the Assembly given an opportunity to express its view on that letter.

Honourable Members: No, No.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: I am not suggesting that it should be discussed. My only submission- is that the Assembly should not be considered to have taken cognisance of the contents of that letter.

Shri M. Thirumala Rao (Madras: General): On a point of information, is it necessary that this letter should be placed before the House or the Members of this House should know the contents of that letter. I do not think it need be placed before the House.

Mr. President: If the matter had not been published, the question of reading it to the House may have arisen. I cannot say what decision in that case would have been, but since it has already been published, the question of reading it to the House does not arise.

Shri R. K. Sidhva: He should have had the courtesy not to publish it.

Shri Mahavir Tyagi: Is the formality of acceptance either by the House or by the President necessary ? The very fact that the resignation has reached ...

Mr. President: As I have said, I shall take action under the rules. Under the rules, I am authorised to accept resignations. That matter does not concern the House.

The House is adjourned till 4 o'clock this afternoon. The Assembly then adjourned till Four of the Clock in the Afternoon.The Assembly reassembled after lunch at Four of the Clock in the afternoon. Mr. President (the Honourable Dr. Rajendra Prasad) in the Chair.Article 303 (contd.)

Mr. President: We shall take up item (p) of article 303 now.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: There is no amendment to this.

Mr. President: The question is:

"That sub-clause (p) stand part of article 303(1)."

The motion was adopted.

Mr. President: Then we shall take up sub-clause (q). Is there any amendment to this sub-clause?

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: There are amendments Nos. 3224 and thereafter standing in the name of Mr. Santhanam and others. I do not think they are being moved.

Mr. President: The question is:

That sub-clause (q) stand part of article 303(1)."

The motion was adopted.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Mr. President, Sir, I move:

"That for sub-clause (r) of clause (1) of article 303. the following sub-clause be substituted:-

'(r) 'railway' does not include tramway, whether wholly within a municipal area or not.'

Sir, may I move the other amendments to sub-clauses (s), (t) and (u) because they are consequential?

Mr. President: Yes.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Sir, I move:

That sub-clauses (s), (t) and (u) of clause (1) of article 303 be omitted."

This is consequential on the revision that we have made in the entry in List I in Schedule VII. There is no need to define Union Railways, State Railways or Minor Railways separately.

The Honourable Shri K. Santhanam (Madras: General) : I only want to know whether tramway is defined anywhere. There is no fundamental difference between a railway and a tramway, except that one is called a railway and the other a tramway.

Mr. President: It is for this reason that it is sought to state that a railway does not include tramway.

The question is:

"That for sub-clause (r) of clause (1) of article 303 the following sub-clause be substituted:-

'(r) 'railway' does not include tramway, whether wholly within a municipal area or not.'

"The amendment was adopted..

Mr. President: The question is:

That sub-clauses (s). (t) and (u) of clause. (1) of article 303 be omitted"

The amendment was adopted.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: There is no amendment to (v),

Mr. President: The question is:

"That sub-clause (v) stand part of article 303(1).

The motion was adopted.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Sir, will YOU take up amendments 203 and 204 together?

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I move:

"That with reference to amendment No. 147 of List IV (Eighth Week). for sub-clause (w} of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be substituted:-

'(w) 'Schedule Castes' means such castes, races or tribes or parts or groups within such castes, races or tribes as are deemed under article 300A of this Constitution- to be Scheduled Castes for the purposes of this Constitution.' "

The only change is, the word 'specified' has been changed to 'deemed', Sir, I move :

"That with reference to amendment No. 148 of List IV (Eighth Week), for sub-clause (x) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be substituted :-

(x) 'scheduled tribes' means such tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within such tribes or tribal communities as are deemed under article 300B of this Constitution to be scheduled tribes for the purposes of this Constitution,"

I am incorporating the other amendment which has also been tabled.

Shall we take up, the two other articles also at the same time?

Mr. President: Yes.

*New articles 300A and 300B.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I move:

"That after article 300, the following articles be inserted :-

300A. Scheduled Tribes (1) The President may, after consultation with the Governor or Ruler of a State, by public notification specify the castes, races or tribes or Scheduled Castes parts of or groups within castes races or tribes, which shall for purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Castes in relation to that State.

(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Castes specified in a notification issued by the President under clause (1) of this article any caste, race or tribe or part of or group within any caste. race or tribe, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification.

300B. Schedule Tribes (1) The President may after consultation with the Governor or Ruler of a State, by public notification specify the tribes or tribal communitiesor parts of or groups within tribes or tribal communities which shall for purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be scheduled tribes in relation to that State. (2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of scheduled tribes specified in a notification issued by the President under clause (1) of this article any Tribe or Tribal community or part of or group within any Tribe or Tribal community but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification."

The object of these two articles, as I stated, was to eliminate the, necessity of burdening the Constitution with long lists of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. It is now proposed that the President, in consultation with the Governor or Ruler of a State should have, the power to issue a general notification in the Gazette specifying all the Castes and tribes or groups thereof deemed to be Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for the purposes of the privileges which have been defined for them in the Constitution. The only limitation that has been imposed is this : that once a notification has been issued by the President, which, undoubtedly, lie will be issuing in consultation with and on the advice of the Government of each State, thereafter, if any elimination was to be made from the List so notified or any addition was to be made, that must be made by Parliament and not by the President. The object is to eliminate any kind of political factors having a play in the matter of the disturbance in the Schedule so published by the President.

Mr. President: 218A.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: In reading it he has included that.

Mr. President: 224.

Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: Sir, I move:

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week) in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300A the following be added at the end :-

'for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution."'

I also move:

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week) in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300B the following be added at the end:-

'for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution.'

I agree with the principle that for ten years to come no variation of the notification originally made by the President should be possible. Because now that special privileges of reservation, etc., have been given to the Scheduled Castes, I do not like the idea that the Executive, President or Governor or any other person may be able to tamper with that right, but after a period of ten years, when this privilege will no longer be available to the Scheduled Castes, there will be no difference between the Scheduled Castes and other backward classes which will be declared under article 301 of the Constitution. At that time there will be no meaning in taking away this power from the President in consultation with the Governor. Therefore my humble submission is that the proposed amendment be accepted to make the point absolutely clear and free from ambiguity. Unless we add these words for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution, you will be taking away the power of the President to include or exclude proper classes from the purview of the notification which will he issued under 300A and B. After the first ten years the privileges which will be open to these classes are probably under article 10 and under articles 296 and 299. I do not know of any other privileges which have been specifically given to these Scheduled Castes. Whereas I am, very insistent and conscious that these provisions should not be tampered with, I do like that these castes may not become stereo-typed and may not lose the capacity of travelling out of the schedule when the right occasion demands it. I, therefore, submit that if you put these words you will be making the whole thing elastic and the President will have the power of including or excluding after the lapse of ten years such tribes or castes within the notification.

Mr. President: Cr. Chaliha-you have two amendments. Once is 205 and the other is 225). I do not know if 205 arises now.

Shri Kuladhar Chaliha (Assam: General): Mr. President, I move;

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week) in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300B after the words 'Parliament may' the words 'and subject to its decision the State Legislature' be inserted."

I have always been fighting that the Governor should have power to safeguard the rights of the Tribes. I am glad in some measure this has been conceded. Yet I find certain amount of suspicion in that the State Legislature is neglected The Drafting Committee has not allowed the State Legislature ,to have a voice In order to fill up that lacuna I have said that Parliament may and subject to its decision the State Legislature'.

Shri. T. T. Krishnamachari :. Then what is left to the State Legislature

Shri Kuladhar Chaliha: Somehow or other I feel you have neglected it. In these you have covered' a good deal which you had objected to in the past. The Governor has been given power I am glad to say. The only thing is provincial assemblies have no voice in this. Whatever Parliament says they are bound by it; but if there is anything which consistently with the orders of the Parliament they can do anything, they should bet, allowed to have the power. That is why I have moved this. However I am thankful this time that the Drafting Committee has assimilated good ideas and only provincial assemblies have been neglected. However, the Governor is there-that is an improvement-Parliament, is there and the President is there. Therefore, I Thank the Drafting Committee for this.

Mr. President: Mr. Sidhva.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It is already covered.

Shri Brajeshwar Prasad (Bihar : General).There are some amendments seeking to add some more clauses.

Mr. President: 'That is a separate matter. These were all the amendments.

Shri V. I. Muniswami Pillai: Mr. President, I come to support the amendments that have been moved by the Honourable Dr. Ambedkar. These amendments deal with the definition of Scheduled Castes. As far as I can see he has made it clear that, according to the second part of it, the President on the 26th January 1950 will publish a list of such communities that come under the category of Scheduled Castes. But I would like to inform this House of the background which brought out the special name of Scheduled Castes. It was the intouchability, the, social evil that has been practised by the Hindu Community for ages, that was responsible for the Government and the people to know the section of people coming under the category of Hindus and who were kept at the outskirts of the Hindu society. Going backwards to 1916 it was in that year when Government found that something had to be done for the untouchable classes, (when they said untouchable classes, they were always understood to be Hindus,) and they had to be recognised. In Madras there were six communities that came under this classification. During the Montago Chelmsford reforms they were made ten. In 1930 when the great epoch-making fast of Mahatma Gandhi came about, then only the country saw who were the real untouchable classes. And in the 1935 Act, the Government thoroughly examined the whole thing and as far as the Province of Madras is concerned they brought 86 communities into this list or category, though there were some touchable classes also. Now, after further examination the Provincial Governments have drawn up a list and T think according to the amendment mover's suggestions, all those communities that come-under the category of untouchables and those who profess Hinduism will be the Scheduled Castes, because I wantto emphasise about the religion. I emphasise this because of late there have been some movements here and there; there are people who have left Scheduled Castes and Hinduism and joired other religions and they also are claiming to be scheduled Castes. Such convert cannot come under the ,cope of this definition. While I have no objection to Government granting any concessions to these converts, I feel strongly that they should not be clubbed along with Scheduled Castes.

Sir, I am grateful to the Drafting Committee and also to the Chairman of that Committee for making the second portion of it very clear, that in future, after the declaration by the President as to who will be the Scheduled Castes, and when there is need for including any other class or to exclude, anybody or any community from the list of Scheduled Castes that must be by the word of Parliament. I feel grateful to him for bringing in this clause, because I know, as a matter of fact, when Harijans behave independently or asserting their right on some matters, the Ministers in some Provinces not only take note and action against those members, but they bring the community to which that particular individual belongs; and thereby not only the individual, but also the community that comes under that category of Scheduled Castes are harassed. By this provision, I think the danger is removed.

I strongly oppose the amendment moved by Pandit Bhargava. The reason is that he wants to have the ten years period for observing these amendments. But he has entirely forgotten that under another article that we have already passed, or will pass the Constitution provides for the appointment of a Special officer at the Centre and also various officers in all the Provinces to go into the various disabilities of these communities and to submit a report to the President who will then be able to know whether the Scheduled Castes have reached a stage when the facilities now given to them could be withdrawn. I do not think that the reasons that he has advanced are fair and square for the uplift of the Harijans.

With these few words, I support the amendment.

Mr. President: Does anyone else wish to speak? Do you wish to say any thing Dr. Ambedkar ?

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I do not accept the amendment of Pandit Thakur Das Bhargaava.

Mr. President: Then I put the amendments. The first is the one with reference to amendment 147.

The question Is:

"That with reference to amendment No. 147 of List IV (Eighth Week), for sub-clause(w) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be substituted:-

(w) 'Scheduled Castes' means such castes, race,.; or tribes or parts of or groups within such castes. races or tribes as are deemed under article 300A of this Constitution to be Scheduled Castes for the purposes of this Constitution;"'

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. President: Then the amendment regarding (x).

The question is

"That with reference to amendment No. 148 of List IV (Eighth Week), for sub-clause (x) of clause (1) of article 303, the following sub-clause be substituted :

'(x) 'Scheduled tribes' means such tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within such tribes or tribal as are deemed under article 300B of this Constitution to scheduled tribes for the purposes of this Constitution;"'

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. President: Then I put the two new articles 300A and 300B. But I first put the amendment. No. 224 of Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.

The question is :

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week), in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300A, the following be added at the end:-

'for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution."'

The amendments was negatived.

Mr. President: There is no other amendment.

I then put No. 201. The question is :

"'that after article 300, the proposed new article 300A stand part of the Constitution."

The motion was adopted.

*Article 300A was added to the Constitution.

Mr. President: Then 300B and the amendment moved by Mi. Sadhva or Mr. Krishnamachari about adding the word "tribal". But then there is another amendment, that of Mr. Chaliha.

The question is:

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week), in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300B, after the words 'Parliament may' the words 'and subject to its decision the State Legislature' be inserted."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: Then I put No. 227 of Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.

The question is :

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week) in clause (2) of the proposed new article 300B, the following be added at the end:-

'for a period of ten years from the commencement of this constitution.

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: Then I put Mr. Krishnamachari's amendment which has really been accepted by Dr. Ambedkar-218A.

The question is:

"That in amendment No. 201 of List V (Eighth Week), in the proposed new article 300B-

(a) in clause (I ), for the word 'communities' in the two places where it occurs, the words 'tribal communities' be substituted;

(b) in clause (2), for the word 'community', in the two places where it occurs, the words 'tribal community' be substituted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. President: Then I put article 300B as proposed by Dr. Ambedkar.

The question is:

"That proposed article 300B be adopted."

The motion was adopted.

Article 300B was added to the Constitution.

EIGHTH SCHEDULE

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I move:

"That the Eighth Schedule be deleted."

Mr. President: There are certain amendments to the Eighth Schedule. They would not arise now.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: No, Sir, they would not arise.

Mr. President: The question is:

"That the Eighth Schedule be deleted."

The motion was adopted.

Schedule Eight was deleted from the Constitution. (Amendment No. 3749 of Volume II seeking to add New Schedule IX was not moved.)

*Article 303 -(contd.)

Shri Brajeshwar Prasad: Sir, I beg to move:

"That in amendment No. 3234 of the List of Amendments, in clause (1) of article 303,after the proposed sub-clause (x), the following now sub-clause be added :-

(xx)'to aid and advise the President means that there is no statutory obligation that President is to be guided by ministerial advice.'

Sir, I do not want to move (z) and have moved only (zz).

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Sir, I am afraid the amendments is out of order for the reason that in the article relating to the Council of Ministers we have definitely provided that the President must act in such and such a manner as prescribed in Schedule III-A. I think my honourable Friend cannot anticipate III-A and nullify the effect of the wording of that particular schedule The article referred to by me is (62) (5) (a). The amendment runs counter to the article and it cannot therefore be accepted.

Mr. President: Instead of taking it as a point of order I will dispose of the amendment.

The question is:

"That in amendment No. 3234 of the List of Amendments, in clause, (1) of article 303,after the proposed sub-clause (y), the following new sub-clause be added :-

"(zz) 'to aid and advise the President' means that there is no statutory obligation that President is to be guided by ministerial advice.' "

The amendment was negatived.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I move:

"That in clause (2) of article 303, the following words be added at the end 'as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of the Legislature of the Dominion of India."'

The reference is to the General Clauses Act.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: I wonder whether there is any real necessity for making this. Even if it is, I do not know how far it would be correct if you have it like this "as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of the Legislature of the Dominion of India". Because, hereafter when the Constitution has come into force, there shall be no law which has been made by the Legislature of the Dominion of India'. The Dominion of India will cease then and all the Acts in force within the Dominion of India will automatically become Acts of the Union.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: The point is this that the General Clauses Act applies to Acts, Regulations and Ordinances. It is therefore necessary to say to which class of these laws this will apply. That is the reason why this amendment is proposed.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: The reference is to the General Clauses Act for the purposes of interpretation. There are three classifications so far as the General Clauses Act is concerned, namely Acts, Ordinances and Regulations. What we want is that only those particular portions which refer to Acts should apply so far as this particular clause is concerned.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: What I mean to submit is that after the Constitution comes into force there shall be no law in existence which could be said to be a law of the 'Dominion of India. So I think our purpose would be fully served if we say "as it applies for the interpretation of any existing Act."

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am afraid you have not examined the General Clauses Act.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: It is no use introducing some provision without carefully scrutinising it.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It had better be left to the draftsmen as to what is necessary and what is not.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: I agree that any necessary corrections should be left to the Drafting Committee. But there is no harm in admitting a mistake if it is a mistake.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I refuse to accept, it is a mistake.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: I know it is not easy to convince you.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad: Sir, I submit amendment No. 206 is perfectly unnecessary. Clause (2) of article 303 is absolutely clear. It says :-

"Unless the context otherwise requires, the General Clauses Act, 1897 (X of 1897), shall apply for the interpretation of this Constitution."

This is quite enough.

The addition of the words again, " as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of the Legislature of the Dominion of India" is absolutely unnecessary. It is of course absolute, plain truth that the General Clauses Act really applies to all the Acts of the Dominion of India. In a book on literature this adjective clause relating to the General. Clauses Act would be perfectly valid, but in a legislative enactment it is unnecessary. Clause (2) is perfectly clear that the Act applies to this Constitution, the addition of the explanatory matter" as it applies for the interpretation" of the Dominion Act is absolutely unnecessary. All that we need say is that the General Clauses Act shall apply for the interpretation of the Constitution unless, of course, the context otherwise requires.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I have said what I had to say and after having seen the General Clauses Act right here, I am quite convinced that the amendment I have moved is a very necessary amendment.

Mr. President: The question is:

That in clause (2) of article 303, the following words be added at the end as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of the Legislature of the Dominion of India."'

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. President: Then clause (3). There is amendment No. 156.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I move:

"That in clause (3) of article 303-

'(i) after the word and figure 'Part I' the words and figures 'or Part III' be inserted;

(ii) for the words 'as the case may be, to an Ordinance made by a Governor' the words 'to an Ordinance made by a Governor or Ruler, as the case may be' be substituted."

It is purely consequential.

Mr. President: The question is:

That in clause (3) of article 303-

'(i) after the word and figure 'Part I' the words and figures 'or Part III' be inserted-,

(ii) for the words 'as the case may be, to an Ordinance made by a Governor' the 'to an Ordinance made by a Governor or Ruler, as the case may be be substituted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. President: Then I put the whole of this article 303.

The question is:

'That article 303, as amended, stand part of the Constitution."

The motion was adopted.

Article, 303, as amended was added to the Constitution.

*Article 304

Mr. President: Article 304. Amendment No. 118.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, move:

'That for article 304. the following be substituted:-

'304. Procedure for amendment of the Constitution. An amendment of the Constitution may be initiated by the introduction of a Bill for the purpose in either House of Parliament, and when the Bill is passed in each House by a majority of the total membership of that House and by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the members of that House present and voting, it shall be presented to the President for his assent and upon such assent being given to the Bill the Constitution shall stand amended in accordance with the terms of the Bill:

Provided that if such amendment seeks to make any change in-

(a) any of the Lists in the Seventh Schedule, or

(b) the representation of States in Parliament, or

(c) Chapter IV of Part V. Chapter VII of Part VI, and article 213A of this Constitution, the amendment shall also require to be ratified by the Legislatures of not less than one-half of the States for the time being specified in Parts I and III of the First Schedule."'

I will move my other amendment also, No. 207. I move:

'That in amendment No. 118 of List III (Eighth Week), for the proviso to the proposed article 304 the following proviso be substituted:-

'Provided that if such amendment seeks to make any change in-

(a) article 43, article 44, article 60, article 142 or article 213A of this Constitution, or

(b) Chapter IV of Part V, Chapter VII of Part VI, or Chapter I of Part TX of this Constitution, o

(c) any of the Lists in the Seventh Schedule, or

(d) the representation of States in Parliament, or

(e) the provisions of this article, the amendment shall also require to be ratified by the Legislatures of not less than one-half of the States for the time being specified in Parts I and III of the First Schedule by resolutions to that effect passed by those Legislatures before the. Bill making provision for such amendment is presented to the President for assent.' "

Sir, I do not wish to say anything at this stage because I anticipate that there would be considerable debate on this article and I propose to reserve my remarks towards the end so that I may be in a position to explain the points that might be raised against this amendment.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad: It is far better to give the arguments in advance to avoid any unnecessary debate.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: If my friend will guarantee to me that be will not take time. I will do it, but I know my friend will have his cake and eat it too.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad: Sir, Dr. Ambedkar will give no argument at the beginning, saying that he will await arguments and speak in reply. But in the end on hearing arguments, he will merely say "I oppose the amendments and reject the arguments"

Mr. President: We shall take up the amendments. No. 119.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Sir, I am not moving amendment No. 119 because it is incorporated in Dr. Ambedkar's amendment. It is covered by No 207.

Mr. President: No. 157, Mr. Santhanam.

The Honourable Shri K. Santhanam: I am not moving it, Sir.

Mr. President: No. 158, Mr. T. T. Krishnamachari.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: That is also covered by Dr. Ambedkar's amendment.

Dr. P. S. Deshmukh: Mr. President, Sir, I move:

"That in amendment No. 118 of List III (Eighth Week), for the substantive part of the proposed article 304, the following be substituted:-