Dated: August 28, 1947
The Constituent Assembly of India met in the Constitution Hall, New Delhi, at Ten of the Clock, Mr. President (The Honourable Dr. Rajendra Prasad) in the Chair.
MEMBERS TAKING THE PLEDGE
The following Members took the pledge
Professor N. G. Ranga.
Shri K. Kamaraja Nadar, M. L. A.
REPORT ON MINORITY RIGHTS
Mr. B. Das (Orissa : General): Sir, on a point of order. Yesterday the House passed Clause 1 (a) which was moved by Mr. K. M. Munshi to define the Scheduled Castes as part of the Hindu Community. Sir, to that I moved an amendment.
Mr. President: I may tell you, Mr. Das, that we are not drafting the statute today. If there is anything which is not quite accurate in the description, the draftsman will put it right. So we need not worry about that. It is a purely technical matter.
Mr. B. Das: Schedule I does not exist from 15th August. It has been omitted in the Adaptation Act (The India Provisional Constitution) Order, 1947.
Mr. President: Even if it does not exist, I think the draftsman will understand what is meant.
Shri Gopikrishna Vijayavargiya (Gwalior State) : Sir, Members from Bengal feel that if right to contest additional seats to minorities is given In Western Bengal it will infringe the position there, and disturb the whole proportion. I request that question may be deferred for later consideration.
Maulana Hasrat Mohani (United Provinces: Muslim) : May I know how, at this time when members of the Congress High Command and members of the minorities talk of the Minorities' Report, they always mean by minority Muslims only ? I refuse to accept Muslims to be a minority. Now you say you have done away with this communalism. Are we not calling a minority to refer only to Muslims ?
Mr. President: I am afraid I have not followed what the Honourable Member is saying.
Maulana Hasrat Mohani: Sir, I did not take any part in the discussions about this Minority Report purposely. My idea was ......
Seth Govinddas (C. P. and Berar : General) : Sir, may I know what Item we are discussing ?
Mr. President: There is no item under discussion; I thought the Maulana was raising a point of order. The Honourable Member should mention his point and then make his speech if necessary.
Maulana Hasrat Mohani: Sir, I have got a very fundamental objection to this Minority Report. How is it that when you talk of minorities you mean Muslims only and when you talk of reservation you refer to Muslims only ?:
Mr. President: I am afraid I cannot allow the Honourable Member to speak at random because there is nothing hat we are Discussing at this stage.
Maulana Hasrat Mohani: I am saying that, when we talk, of minorities how is it that Muslims only are referred to as a religious minority ? The Muslims refuse to be called a minority if parties are formed on political line.
Mr. President: I think the Honourable Member is discussing the merits of a matter which has already been discussed and passed.
Maulana Hasrat Mohani: That is what I wanted to say.
Mr. President: We were discussing Clause 4 of the Appendix yesterday and we will now take up the amendments.
Mr. Debi Prasad Khaitan (West Bengal : General): Sir, in connection with this I have an amendment, No. 44, which is related to paragraph 4 of the Report which is also Clause 4 of the Appendix. If you allow me to move that at the proper time I shall be obliged. And if you wish me to move it now I am prepared to do it.
Mr. President: Yes, you can move it.
Shriyut Rohini Kumar Chaudhury (Assam : General): Sir, according to the order paper we should discuss the fundamental rights first and then take up the consideration of any other matter.
Mr. President: We are discussing this first,
Mr. Debi Prasad Khaitan: Sir, I move:
"That with reference to paragraph 4 this Assembly recommends that owing to seats shall not have the right to contest unreserved seats."
I have collected certain figures which go to show that the aggregate Population of scheduled castes and Muslims constitute about half of the total population. If to the figures that I have added together for Burdwan Division, Presidency Division and Jalpaiguri and Darjeeling districts, the fiqures of Murshidabad, Nadia and Dinajpur which have come over to West Bengal be added, the total figures of scheduled castes and Muslim will be still more adverse to the rest of the population. Therefore if will be very unjust and unfair if the communities for whom reservations have been made are allowed to contest still more seats out of the. unreserved ones. It may be remembered that the general population apart from the scheduled castes............
Mr. H. J. Khandekar (C. P. and Berar General): Sir, on a point of order, we passed a clause yesterday to the effect that the scheduled castes are a part and parcel of the Hindu community and not a minority. So the present amendment and the Mover's speech making the scheduled castes a minority is, I think, out of order.
Mr. Debi Prosad Khaitan: I submit, Sir, that what I am referring to is communities or a section of a community for whom reservations have been made. Whether they are called minorities or a section of the Hindus, the position is not disturbed at all. I am not referring to scheduled castes as a recognised minority but as that section of the Hindu community for which reservation is made. Therefore I submit that I am not at all out of order.
The position is that the general population after taking into account the scheduled castes and Muslims will 'be about 'half or just more than half. Further I intend to submit that the general population, after the scheduled castes and Muslims have got their reserved seats, would like to give some seats to Indian Christians, Buddhists who are a large number in Bengal, and other communities to which some of the seats should more properly go than those communities who have already got reservation. I submit that this matter requires further consideration at our hands. So I am moving this amendment and I believe Mr. Munshi will make a recommendation that just as the case of East Punjab has been reserved for further consideration. the case of West Bengal in these circumstances should also be kept back for further consideration. I would be willing to accept that suggestion.
Sir, I move.
(Shri Mohanlal Saksena and Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena did not move their amendments.)
Mr. President: As this is the only amendment that is moved, the matter 'is now open for discussion.
Mr. K. M. Munshi (Bombay : General): Mr. President, Sir, the amendment moved by my Honourable friend, Mr. Khaitan was moved only with a view to I state that the case of West Bengal may be considered afresh. And I understand that the Honourable Mover of the Report is going to accept it in that. form only. The reason for this is that the figures for the new West Bengal that were placed before the Mover of the Resolution were not accurate. At least there is some disclussion as to whether the figures are accurate or inaccurate. If the figures are inaccurate then this question may require some kind of consideration later on. Then why precipitate a decision on the figures which are not correct ? Therefore it is felt advisable to leave the case of West Bengal to be considered later on when all the figures have been properly collected. That is whole purpose of this amendment. It does not seek to make any change in the body of Clause 4 so far as the whole of India is concerned; except that as the case of East Punjab for consideration has been accepted, that of West Bengal also may be considered afresh.
Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra (West Bengal: General): Mr. President, Sir, I would like to say a few words in connection with the amendment which has been just moved. I want to tell this House and particularly my friends of the Scheduled Castes and other minorities that the object of this amendment is not to frustrate or to defeat the object which is embodied in the Minority Committee's Report. But the House should at the same time realise that the position of West Bengal and of East Punjab today is entirely different from that of the rest of India, as a result of the partition of the country, and particularly after the Radcliffe Award which in many respects varies from the national award. Most of the members from Bengal are not in a position to understand here and now what exactly has been the result and what west Bengal's population now consists of. If we compare the statements contained in the Radcliffe Award with what is stated here, we find considerable divergence in the matter of figures. Nobody knows exactly what is the population of West Bengal now under the Radcliffe Award. Therefore, instead of precipitating a decision just now, we may stay our hands for the present, so that when we are in full possession of the statistical data with regard to the newly formed provinces of West Bengal and East Punjab,, we may be in a position to decide their case in a proper manner. The House has already accepted this suggestion in the case of East Punjab. We now submit that the House will bear with us, and that, the case of West Bengal Also may be fully and carefully considered with all the available data that may be in our possession within a few days. I may tell the House that the Radcliffe Award is so illogical and arbitrary that in some cases the domestic households of persons have been in the Indian Union while their able lands are in Pakistan. So We are not in a position to know what area is meant When we simply see the word Pakistan or Indian Union mentioned. We do not know what portion is in Pakistan and what portion is in Hindustan, and what is the relative population in either part. What all these considerations in view, we have now come to the conclusion that for doing justice for all parties concerned the question of West Bengal should stand over for-the present This is all that is demanded in the present motion. There is no Idea of going behind the principle that we have accepted. With these few word I support the amendment.
Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad (West Bengal: Muslim): Mr. President, Sir, I do not here want to say anything on this delicate question that may raise any controversy. I only desire to draw the attention of the House to certain aspects of the matter, and I hope the Honourable the Mover of the Report will kindly consider them; but whatever the decision of this House may be, it Will be loyally and cheerfully accepted.
Sir, the effect of this amendment would be that in West Bengal some minorities, excluding the Scheduled Castes who have now been treated as a separate class feel that they would lose the sentimental right or advantage of contesting the unreserved seats. The principal object, so far as I can see, in providing for the right of the minorities to contest unreserved seats seems to be to induce them to give up their privileges of. reservation of seats, as quickly as possible. In fact, if there was no reservation, the position would be that they may get more seats in certain constituencies than otherwise 'but only if the majority community favours them. This is thus an inducement thrown out to the minorities to give up their claim for reservation. In fact, the Hindus being in a great majority in West Bengal, they would have had the choice of electing an additional member of the minority group to the unreserved seat. It would be entirely in their hands. So the amendment would, Seek to deprive the situation of that condition. I submit that it, would be better to keep the original paragraph as it stands rather than to accept this amendment, But I make my submission with regard to this only to request Honourable Sardar Patel to consider the same.
With regard to the minorities, the Scheduled Castes as I pointed out a moment ago now form a different class altogether. Practically the only minority that remains and that will be affected by the amendment will be the Muslim community. If the Hindus would cheerfully elect a Muslim to an additional seat, that would be entirely for them to say; and if they think that a particular Muslim for nationalistic reasons or for reasons of efficiency etc. if they think that they should elect him, that is their business. If they think that they would not elect an additional Muslim to an unreserved seat, they can always do so. But I think the right of the electorate should be left absolutely untouched and a legislative prohibition should not be introduced. It is on grounds of high policy that I speak and not on narrow grounds of getting or losing one or two seats.' One or two seats would not matter. What matters is the sentimental gesture to the minorities. This is, a situation which deserves very careful consideration from the point of view of long-range politics.
Shri Upendra Nath Barman (West Bengal: General): Mr. President, Sir, I had no intention to oppose this motion, but I have to stand up today .before this House because of some observations made by the Mover of the Resolution in the course of which he insinuated that after the Radcliffe Award and the partition of Bengal, West Bengal will have almost 50 per cent or exactly 50 per cent of population within the Scheduled and Muslim communities, and therefore he wants to defer this matter and appoint a Committee. My submission is that this is a reflection upon the Scheduled Castes which we all have been trying for so long to shake off altogether. I submit that we, the Scheduled Castes, have joined wholeheartedly in this constitution-making not only from outside but as members of the Congress, because we know that whatever may be our shortcomings during this period of our dependence whatever crimes we may have imbibed during our unfortunate period, there had been born men amongst us, specially of Bengal I can say like Vivekananda and Rabindranath Tagore who inspired in us the faith and hope of rejuvenation of India. Now, during the course of my taking part in this Constituent Assembly and the various Committees, I am confirmed in, my belief that after all. the genius of India has not forsaken her in her hour of need. We have complete faith in the sagacity of the majority community for the time being I call them.
Sir, this independence has been won by the Congress with the help of those who had the keenest of vision, the highest of wisdom, the straightest of limb and the staunchest of spirit. We have full faith in their impartiality when they take the reins of office in their own hands, and we have full faith 'that they will amply discharge their duty of enlivening India, of lifting her to the standard of such a height that she might take her rightful place among the comity of nations. But at such a time, unfortunately one of my friends from Bengal speaks and speaks in such a way that it pains us. So I have the painful duty to remind him that this is not the way to gain faith. After all, Sir, what are you going to do? I have no objection to putting off this matter to a later date to, consider the whole position of West Bengal. I have no doubt that this Assembly on whom rests so much responsibility will come to the same decision as we are going to adopt, perhaps according to the decision Of the minority committee. But still some friends from Bengal think that their decision should be reconsidered I-have no objection to that. After all, after this Radcliffe Award and the division of Bengal, the Muslims have got a minority; there can be absolutely no doubt about it. I do not worry for a moment about any seat outside the reserved quota because I know full well that even in the reserved quota the minority will have to depend upon the majority votes, i.e., the Caste Hindus. Our revered leaders have told us time and again that this blot within the Hindu com-munity, the Scheduled Castes must go so that we can rise as a nation.
I fully endorse that view. But, my submission is that in the interim period, so long as this distinction remains the Scheduled Castes will depend upon the majority community. So if in any case outside the reserve quota, any Scheduled Caste member or a Muslim member so to speak, wants to contest a seat, he will have to depend upon the sympathy and faith of the bigger community. So from my point of view, I do not worry at all whether outside the reserve seats any seat be allowed to be contested by the Scheduled Castes, but as a matter of principle when you are going to accept the principle for the rest of the Provinces, do you mean to say that this august Assembly will make an exception in the case of Bengal or any particular province I think not. However, I leave it to the House to defer this matter or not.
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel (Bombay : General) Mr. President, Sir, there is only one amendment to Clause 4. The members of the., minority community have reserved seats and those who have reserved seats will have right to contest unreserved seats as well. The amendment moved today by Mr. Khaitan, which has been amended by Mr. Munshi seeks that line the East Punjab the question of West Bengal be held over. There is no reason either for the Scheduled Caste people or other people to have any suspicion about it. When the East Punjab question will be examined., the West Bengal question will also be examined. Nothing will be done behind their back and nothing will be taken away without their consent or without their knowledge. It has still to be seen what the actual effect of the, population and proportion will be. Therefore, when we have made the Schedule which we have passed for giving safeguards in connection with franchise and elections, we have fixed them on the basis of population and strength. If really the population is, so much so far as any minority is concerned, that they need not have any such additional right to contest, if it is such as would affect the majorities seriously so as to reduce it to an ineffective majority, then it is a case for consideration. So if it only suggested, as is suggested in the amendment, that this question be held over and be conSidered along with the question of East Punjab, then there is no need for any apprehension. There need be no doubt about the sincerity of the people who have given these concessions, and in substance they will stand by it. Therefore, I have no hesitation in accepting the amendment and I move that Clause A may be accepted.
Mr. President: There is only one amendment, the effect of which is that the question of West Bengal may be held over for consideration at a later date. The Mover has accepted it. Do I take it that the House-, accepts that' suggestion ?
Honourable Members: Yes.
Mr. President : Then, I put Clause 4, as amended, to vote.
Clause 4, as amended was adopted,
CLAUSE 5
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel:; Clause 5-
"The minorities for whom representation has been reserved will be allotted seats on their population ratio, and there shall be no weightage for any community.,,
I don't think that there need be any debate on this question now as it has been fully discussed in the Press and also in the Committee and I don't think there will be any body who will differ from it. Sir, I move this for the acceptance of the House.
Mr. President: There are two amendments to this (Messrs. Tajamul Husain and H. J. Khandekar did not move their amendments.) I put the clause to vote.
Clause 5 was adopted.
CLAUSE 6
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel:; For the subsequent clauses also there will be no amendments I suppose Clause 6-
No condition for a minimum number of votes of one's own community. 'There shall be no stipulation that a minority candidate standing for election for a reserved seat shall poll a minimum number of votes of his own community before he is declared elected."'
This question has also been considered very often even in the past and it is another form of separate electorates being introduced and it has been considered and in view of the change in the situation there is no need for introducing any such thing. We have agreed no such reservation of percentage is necessary. Sir, I move the clause for the acceptance of the House.
(Messrs Tajamul Husain and V. C. Kesava Rao did not move their amendments.)
K. T. M.
Ahmed Ibrahim Sahib Bahadur (Madras: Muslim): Amendment No. 4 was given notice of by Mr. Pocker Saheb and myself and it refers to this clause.
Mr. President: I will take it up later. Mr. Nagappa.
Shri S. Nagappa (Madras: General) : Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to bring to the notice of the House that in the case of Scheduled Classes before they are declared elected to the seats reserved for them, I would request that a certain percentage of the votes of that community the candidates must be able to poll. I know, Sir, that that gives a kind of prestige and leadership to the candidate who comes from that community. For instance today if we are elected to reserved seats, when there is agrarian trouble, when the Harijans and the agriculturists are at loggerheads and when we go and appeal to these people these Harijans they say "Get Gut man, you are the henchmen and show-boys of the caste Hindus. You have sold our community and you have come here on their behalf in order to cut our throats. We don't accept you as our representative." Sir, in order to avoid that what I suggested is that a certain percentage of the Harijans must elect the candidate so that he may be able to tell them that he has, the backing of some Harijans and he will have the prestige and voice as their representative. That prestige and voice he should have.
Mr. H. J. Khandekar: Is the Mover moving his amendment or is he making a speech ? He must declare whether lie is moving or not'?
Mr. President: Are you moving the amendment or not ?
Shri S. Nagappa: Yes, I am moving the amendment.
The Honourable Mr. B. G. Kher (Bombay: General) : Yesterday the Honourable Member congratulated Sardar Patel for being firm and refusing to accept this. Now he is moving this amendment.
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel:; He is moving it only to make a speech and then withdraw it, (Laughter).
Mr. President: Every member has a right to be inconsistent.
Shri S. Nagappa: Sir, I would explain how this does not amount to separate electorates.
Shri Mohan Lal Saksena (United Provinces: General): Let him move his amendment first, and then let him speak.
Mr. President: It makes no difference when he says he moves it. Mr. Nagappa you please read out the amendment.
Shri S. Nagappa: The amendment is as follows
"That the following be added at the end of para. 6
'Provided that in the case of the Scheduled Castes the candidate before he is declared elected to the seat reserved for the Scheduled Castes, Shall have secured not less than 35 per cent. of the votes polled by the Scheduled Castes in the election to the reserved seat'."
Now Sir, I would explain to you how it does not work out to separate electorates.
Mr. K. M. Munshi: Does the Honourable the Mover of the amendment wish to mote the amendment or is he going to withdraw it ?
Mr. President: He has said he wants to move it.
Shri S. Nagappa: For instance there are four candidates that are seeking election to the reserved seats. Now let us take it there are 100 Scheduled Caste votes and let us assume all the 100 Scheduled Caste voters comes and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only 29 is there for the other. Now you need not take that man at all into consideration who has polled only 29 per cent. Now again you need not have two elections. You can distribute two coloured papers to the voters come and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only placed only for the Scheduled Caste candidate and if one gets more than 35 per cent, of the Scheduled Caste votes, or coloured votes, you need not take the other man into consideration at all.
Sir, even if he gets 36 per cent. but does not get the highest number of votes in the general election he should not be declared elected. As it is, if X gets 36 per cent. of 'the votes of the community and Y gets only 35 per cent., if the former does not get the majority of votes of the other communities at the election he is declared to be defeated and the latter though he gets only lesser number of votes of his own
community, is declared elected; if he gets more votes than, X at the general elections, been declared elected. After all the election is completely in the hands of the general constituency or community. According to the Poona Pact you have allowed four candidates tot elected at the primary elections. This means that a man who gets 25 per cent. of the votes is declared elected to the panel where you have allowed cumulative Voting. That is almost separate electorate I do not want separate electorates. I know the evils of separate electorates. I am for joint.,electorates. But, while seeing that joint electorates are there, let us not put the Harijan representatives in disfavour with their community who, as it is, call them show-boys of the general community. If a provision of the kind I am advocating is adopted, we can face the people of our community and tell them "Look here, we have been elected also by a majority of 35 per cent. of the members of our own community. We are not show-boys".
By my amendment I am only seeking to reduce the panel from four to two and providing for the election Of the, person who gets the majority of votes of the general community. I would request Members to think over it without prejudice.
I thank you, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to move my amendment.
K. T. M. Ahmed Ibrahim Sahib Bahadur: Mr. President, Sir, I move:
"That on a consideration of the Report of the Advisory Committee on minorities, fundamental rights, etc. on minority right this meeting of the Constituent Assembly resolves that in case the elections to the Central and Provincial Legislatures are to be held on the basis of joint electorates for all commmunities Wit reservation of seats. for minorities, the election should be held on the following basis.":
I am not moving (a)-
"Out of the candidates who have secured at, least 30 per cent. of the votes polled of their own community the candidates. who secures the highest number of votes polled on the joint electoral roll shall be declared elected. In case there is no candidate, who has secured not less than 30 per cent. of the votes polled of his own community, then out of the two canidates ',-Who Secures the highest number of votes of their own community, that candidate'shall be declared elected who secures the highest number of voter of the total votes polled."
Mr. President, this amendment is in-tended to secure the fulfilment in a satisfactory manner of the object of the reservation of seats accorded to the minorities by Clause 1. If a person is elected to the reserved seat by a constituency it will generally be presumed that that person represents the members of that community and that he would reflect the views and the opinions of that particular community in whose favour that seat has been reserved in that constituency. Now, Sir, for that person to represent in any adequate manner that particular community, he must command the confidence of that community. We want therefore that if he does not command the confidence of the majority of the community, he must have the confidence of at least 30 per cent. or even less of the voters of that community who went to the poll. This, Will concede. Sir, is a very reasonable request. It is a fundamental you and vital right of every citizen in every form of democracy that his. views and opinions must be given expression to on the floor of the Legislatures of the country. How can any citizen be confident that his views Will be adequately represented an the floor of the House if the person sent to the legislature does not have the confidence of at least a fair proportion of the members of the community, if not the majority of that community ? You will also remember, Sir. that a provision of of this nature was, adopted by general agreement at the Third Unity Conference held at Allahabad in December 1932, i.e., as a result of the agreement reached between all the communities and parties in this land.
My amendment is only an adaptation of the agreement which was arrived at on that occasion. I wish to Point out, Sir, that if there is no such provision, the person who is elected to the reserved seat cannot be expected to represent the views of the community in whose , favour that seat has been reserved It would be imposing on a community a a who has been virtually elected by another community to represent the community which has been given the benefit of reservation, of mats, but has not been elected by it. Now it is too late in the day to contend that there are no minorities in this country and that there am no special interests of minorities to be safeguarded. The very appointment of the Advisory Committee no, Fundamental Rights and on Minorities and the Minorities Sub-Committee presupposes the existence of minorities and their special interests. The Report also has proceeded on the assumption that there are certain interests of minorities to be protected. Therefore I say this House 'would not now take up the position that there are no minorities and there are no special interests to be provided for. Now, the issue as to how best to give protection to these minorities has to be considered. One of chief problems of modern democracy is how best to temper the rigours of the majority in order that the minorities may be protected from such rigours.
Now, Sir, in this age the divine right of kings has given- place to the divine right of the majority, as has been put by a jurist. Our aim must be how best to temper the rigours of the majority in order that the minorities may have confidence in the majority, and in the constitution framed by the majority and may work out the constitution with all sincerity and honesty of purpose. We are assembled here as citizens of the State to frame a constitution in such a manner as to assure 'all sections of the population of their rights and to infuse confidence in the minds of all the sections of the population that their rights-Will be safeguarded'. This amendment does not go any further than this, that in respect of the election of all representatives who are expected to reflects the views of a particular minority or community at least a fair proportion of the voters of that particular minority or community should have voted for the said representatives. This is a very legitimate request and by passing this amendment, Sir, we are not taking away the right of the mojority to finally determine the representative of the consttuency. Therefore, Sir, I appeal to this House to dispose of this question, in the words of the Honourable Mover "in an atmosphere of friendliness". As the Honourable Mover rightly said "we must leave behind us the legacy of bitterness" arid we must look at this question devoid of all passion. I am anxious, Sir, that this matter should be considered in an atmosphere of extreme calm. Left to myself I would have wished that this Report no the Rights of Minorities was considered at a time when this country was free from all passion and the heat of the moment has subsided and died down, but unfortunately it has been taken un now. I appeal to you, following the appeal of the Honourable Mover, to conorder this question in a dispassionate manner and not to import any heat. After all we request that the members of the minority community should be afforded 'the necessary facilities in order that the representatives elected in their' name for the purpose of speaking on their behalf may have the confidence of a fair proportion of the voters. There is nothing anti-national in it and there is nothing fundamentally wrong. On the other hand it would be granting one of the fundamental and vital rights of every citizen in any form of democracy that he should have the right to have this views represents in the parliament of the country by a person in whom he has got confidence and the members elected by the minority will after all be in a minority and the minority will not be able to dominate over the decisions of the majority in the lagislature. The only purpose,is that the views and opinions of the minorities and the other communities may be refleceted ol the floor of the House in a proper manner by a person in whom those communities have got confidence at least to a limited extent. This is the purpose of this amendment and I do not know how it will infringe on the rights of the majority or bow it will convert the majority community into a minority in any manner.
Well, Sir, for the successful working of any constitution, there must be confidence created in all sections of the population by the constitution framed. We desire that the independence that has been achievedthe new-born independence must be independence and freedom for all sections of the population and this can be achieved only if the constution to be framed by this House secures the freedom and independence of all sections of the people and infuses confidence I in the minds of the members of all sections. My amendment is a step in that direction, and I submit this is the surest way to foster harmony, good-will, cordiality and amity between the various sections and communities. The pre-requisite for the creation of harmony and cordiality between the various sections of the population is the creation of confidence in, the minds of the various sections of the population and therefore it is that I appeal to this House to remember that after all we want only that the representatives may be elected by a fair proportion of voters of the particular communities. Well, Sir, I would like to point out that the system of proportional representation by a single transferable vote is an accepted. method of election in all democracies and this very House has accepted the said method in respect of certain elections to be held in pursuance of this country was free from all passion and the,neat of the moment has the constitution we are framing and this amendment is only an approach towards the system of proportional representation by single transferable, vote and therefore, I hope, Sir. that this House, will accept this amendment. I am glad that the same feeling was also epressed by my Honourable friend Mr. Nagappa on behalf of the Scheduled Castes. You will see that we are not actuated by any malice or ill-will against anyone, but we only desire that there should be, confidence in the minds of the, minorities that their views are properly represented in the legislature by persons in whom they have confidence and in whose election they have a reasonably fair voice. I commend my amendment for the acceptance of the House.
Shrimati Dakshayani Velayudan (Madras: General) Mr. President I find that for the Motion four Members have given their names and first comes the name of the Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. I am surprised to find that a Member who came in as result of a joint electorate came forward to move this amendment whereas a member who, was all the while standing, for separate electorates and for the so-called percentage is not to be seen in the House to-day. If there was any sincerity in moving this amendment we could have found the person who headed the list, and I do not know why another member took up that responsibility. There may be some reason behind the scene. ' The Mover of the amendment, Mr. Nagappa, said when they come to, the Assemblies as a result ,of joint electorates they may not be coming With the votes of the community and so they are not entitled to represent the community. If Mr. Nagappa thinks that he has come here as a result of such an election, the wisest and the best thing that he ought to do would be to withdraw his candidature or his membership from this Assembly and the Provincial Assemblies (Hear, hear). If anybody thinks that he is unfit to speak for the community when he comes on the vote of the community or the vote of the people in general, the best way to do service to the community is to disappear from the scene and not to take part in any political activities whatsoever and I think Dr. Ambedkar was wise enough to be absent on the occasion because he knew that this is not going to be carried in the Assembly today or on any day. As the Chairman of the, Minority Committee spoke yesterday these things were passed in the committee by
majority of votes and, whatever reasons that he may bring forward here, it may not be carried out. So without wasting his time, he has gone for his work as he is engaged in Cabinet work. Somebody has come forward with an excuse that if this form of electorate exists, the real representatives of the people will not be able to come. If we analyse the demand for a percentage of the votes. of the community, we will come to the conclusion that it is nothing but unadulterated separate electorates (Hear, hear). I must ask the Honourable Members who moved the amendment whether they are giving any meaning to the votes that. will be cast by the members of other communities. In practice, we have to take into account only the votes that will be cast by the community. If a candidate gets 34 per cent. and another date 35 per cent. of the votes of his community, if the first candidate gets 200 cites from the general public and the next candidate gets 100 votes from the general public, and if we take into account the percentage of votes cast by the community, certainly the second candidate Should be elected. Then it comes to this that there will be no meaning to the votes cast by other communities though it amounts to double the number of votes which the second candidate gets from the general people.
Then there is another reason for my opposing this amendment. Even if the Harijans are given this percentage of votes, and this kind of electorate system, the Harijans are not in a position to withstand the attractions that they will have to face at the time of elections. So many parties can set up candidates and they can purchase the Harijans and put up any candidate they desire', and any candidate can come up in the assembly' and certainly he may not represent the community though he may get percentage of votes that is desired by this system. Along as the Scheduled Castes, or the Harijans, or by whatever name they may be called, are economic slaves of other people, there is no meaning demanding either separate electorates or joint electorates or any other kind of electorates with this kind of percentage. (Cheers). Personally speaking, I am not in favour of any kind of reservation in any place whatsoever. (Hear, hear). Unfortunately, we had to accept all these things because the British Imperialism has left some marks on us and we are always feeling afraid of one another. So, we cannot. do away with separate electorates. This joint electorate and reservation of seats also is a kind of separate electorates But we have to put up with that evil because we think that it is a necessary evil. I wanted to oppose this amendment because it will be standing in our way and because when the system is put into actual working it. will be standing in the way of Harijans, getting a correct ideology. It is lack of correct ideology among Harijans that has led them to bring this sort of amendment here. If they think that they can better their lot by standing apart from the other communities, they are in the wrong. They can do better by joining with the majority community and not depending on the votes of their own, community. I must assure the Mover of the amendment that the Harijans are not going to gain anything. if you get this sort of electorate system. So I oppose I this amendment and I hope that nobody' in this House will support the amendment. (Cheers.)
(Many Honourable Members rose to speak.)
Mr. President: I have got requests from a very large number of Members to speak. on this.
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel:; Sir, I should like to say a few words before the debate is carried on. Mr. Nagappa was allowed to move the amendment on condition that he will withdraw it. There Is no use in carrying on the debate. He only wanted to show to his community that he has not sold himself away: If you take it seriously and give importance to this business, then it would show that there is some substance in it. Why do you want to waste, the time of the House on it ?
Mr. President : Is it necessary to carry on the debate about Mr. Nagappa's amendment ?
Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi (Madras: General) : That need not be taken seriously, Sir
Many Honourable Members: Closure. closure.
Mr. President : No closure. There is the other amendment by Mr. Ibrahim.
(Kazi Syed Karimuddin rose to speak.)
Mr. President: Do you want to speak about it? We have dropped Mr. Nagappa's amendment at any rate.
Kazi Syed Karimuddin (C. P..& Berar : Muslim): Sir, I support the amendment of Mr. Ibrahim, and I have to say a few words. I have heard with great patience the admirable speech of Pandit Pant and Sardar Pater's spirited defence of joint electorates. My submission is that I do' not agree that it is only due to the separate electorates that the present situation is created. I do not want'to minimise the various factors which have led to the present situation; but on behalf of the Muslim League Party, Sir, I submit that we are equally determined to eradicate this evil, from India and we will not leave any stone unturned in offering our hand of co-operation in this matter.
Mr. Ibrahim has moved an amendment, Sir, that there should be joint electorates with reservation of seats and that a member of a particular community should secure 33 per cent. of the votes of his community. We cannot forget that there are misgivings. We cannot be blind to the present situation in the country. We all desire that it should not contiune any more. But there are misgivings. There is mistrust and we have to move on very carefully and very calmly. This House has already decided on the abolition of separate electorates and we have to find out a formula that would satisfy the minorities. We must have the progress of the country in view also. The formula or amendment moved by Mr. Ibramhim lays down that there should be joint electorates. A candidate from a minority community will have to go with his cap in hand to beg the votes from other communities. Communalism will be gradually killed. Then he has to be a representative of his own community. For: which purpose have you given: reservation of seats ? Reservation of seats is given for this purpose that he should represent a particular community,
An Honourable Member: No, Sir.
Kazi Syed Karimuddin: He should have the sentiments of his community in view, he should have the aspirations of his community before him If a minimum, number of votes from his community is not fixed and if he is not able to secure that, my submission is that it will be the position of a client engaging a pleader who will be opposed to the interests of his client. Even a man of straw, or even L false convert will be able to defeat a genuine or real member ;A a community. Therefore, my submission is that in the interests "- of the provision of reservation of seats, it is necessary for a particular period that we should give this minimum number of votes to a candidate of a particular community. I do, not agree, Sir, that the mere introduction of joint electorates is a magic wand to do away with all these evils. The problem of the Schedule Castes is over and above this joint electorate for centuries. There are many other considerations which have contributed to the present position. I make an earnest appeal that as you have made a generous gesture of giving reservation of seats, you should also concede that for a particular period, the Muslim minority should be allowed to have a minimum number of voters from the community which will satisfy their political aspirations.
Mr. H. J. Khandekar: [Mr. President, Sir, I stand to oppose the amendment which has been placed before you by my friend Mr. Nagappa. This amendment stands in the name of four Members. The first name is that of Dr. Ambedkar, and you all know that from the time of Vie Second Round Table Conference till the Minority Sub-Committee, of the Advisory Committee assembled, he relinquished the demand for joint electorates and continued the demand for separate electorates. On the question of this demand his message to all Harijans of his country, who belonged to his party, went to the extent that they were not even Hindus that they wished to have a colony separate from the Hindus, that they were not within the fold of Hindu religion, and it was for this reason that they desired separate electorates. This thing has been going on in the country for the-last fifteen years with the result that a sort of discord has been created between Caste Hindus and Harijans of Dr. Ambedkar's party, and it- has gone to the extent that Harijans of Ambedkar party do not wish to converse with Hindus. But I feel happy to state that when this matter relating to joint and separate electorates came-Up before the Minority Sub-Committee, Dr. Ambedkar did not press the claim further but withdrew it on the ground that he had no argument in support of the principle.
For the last 15 years, I have listened with interest to the speeches Of Dr. Ambedkar and read them in newspapers too, but, there was no argument in them in support of the demand for separate electorates. In this way, as the demand did not stand to reason, lie did not press it but withdrew it. It is a great victory for us. Having withdrawn the demand, separate electorate was thought of by which the plea for percentage could be pressed. Speaking plainly it means that he desires separate electorates in a different form. I may explain lo you the effects of separate electorates in this country. It was because of Lord Morley Minto that Muslims got separate electorates. and the result was that our country was divided into two. The same separate electorates are being brought before us in. the form of percentage. If this is accepted either for Harijans or for our'Muslim brother$, then it would mean the fulfilment of what my friend Mr. Jinnah has always said "Muslin-IS of India and Muslims of Pakistan"-which mean-; the preparation for Pakistan within India. Much suffering, has been caused already. India has been divided into two. Brother Muslims have'. got what they wanted and was for their benefit. Having got that, they should, be good enough not to try to create Pakistan within India and should not bring an amendment of this sort in this House.
It has come to my notice that our Muslim brothers, who in this country are about 3 crores, have got and are going to get on the report of the Advisory Committee all the facilities which they should get. Even
*[English translation of Hindustani speech.
then they say that they should get percentage of votes in order to enable them to elect their representatives. Once again, my friend Mr. Nagappa too, who is an ally of Dr. Ambedkar and is dancing to his tune on some expectations, says the same thing, i.e., that it is in this way alone that our true representatives will be chosen. I want to ask these brothers, what is the meaning of a true representative ? I want to cite the example of this Assembly. If my friends are not true representatives of Harijans, if Kazis are not here as true representatives of Muslims then, what will happen to this Assembly ? If these honest Muslim brothers shout "Jinnah Zindabad", we shout "Bharat-Mata-ki-jai" or other slogans and such sort of pin pricks continue, what will be the result ? I would like to ask Mr. Nagappa and Kazi Sahib, who will suffer then, the majority or the minority ? Any declaration of this sort is most improper and therefore I do not agree with the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.
The other thing which I have just pointed out is that this percentage of votes is through the medium of 'separate electorates. Even after the present amendment, a few more are coming before you in support of the percentage of votes) which is in fact a child of separate electorates. It is improper to bring amendments of this kind within-this House. It is merely wasting the time of the House. I wish to state that whatever has happened as a result of percentage of votes is before us. I am Very to say that the result of separate electorates and the Poona Pact has been that in Nagpur and in Bombay, there is considerable agitation today against the Hindus and there are differences between one caste and another. The Poona Pact provided for primary election and cumulative voting which indirectly meant separate electorate. Do Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Nagappa want to aggravate or eliminate this mutual conflict ? If they want to eliminate they should withdraw the amendment. If the tension between the caste Hindus and the Harijans is aggravated the latter would be the loser not the gainer. Because of this mentality of Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Nagappa the Harijans will permanently remain Harijans and their position would gradually deteriorate. There are sub-castes within castes. There are several sub-castes among Harijans. In fact Harijans are not a part of any community but are spread. throughout India in 132 sub-castes. If percentage of 35 is passed, the 3 per cent. "Chamars" who live in Nagpur will not come. within the orbit of this election. If election is fought community-wise then "Mahars" who are 80 per cent. will get 35 per cent, votes. Therefore "Chamars", "Bhangis" and the other sub-castes will.not be able to return their representatives in elections because they are in minority among Harijans. In that case only the 'Mahars', to which section Dr. Ambedker and I belong and which has a predominating majority in Bombay and Nagpur, will capture all the mats of the' Harijans in those provinces and other Harijans will get no seat at all.
Besides, I have to request Mr. Nagappa to withdraw the amendment. the reason being that contrary to his belief the percentage of votes is not in favour of Harijans. Harijans will not benefit by it, in- fact it would be very bad (for them). Today we have achieved freedom for this country. We the inhabitants of this country have become its masters. Under than circumstances, if we do not take the majority community into confidence, and if the majority community does not take us to its confidence, then the government of this country cannot go on. For preserving peace in the country I have to request Mr. Nagappa to kindly withdraw the amendment.
Friends, only a few days back we the Hindus, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Christian, the Parsis and the Harijans all acclaimed with one'voice that we are one nation. We all gave our respectful salute to this tricolour. It would be a pity, if today we put in this amendment which seeks separate electorates.]
Shrimati Renuka Ray (West Bengal: General): Sir, I rise to oppose this last amendment. The report of the Advisory Committee shows very clearly that its authors have done their utmost to satisfy all elements in the country. In fact, Sir, if the report has erred it has erred in the direction of over-generosity to the so-called minorities. In order to allay suspicion and distrust and to come to an agreed solution it has given every consideration to those who are swayed by communal and religious considerations even to the sacrifice of national interests. After all Sir, it is not a question of minorities and majorities on a religious basis that we should consider in a democratic secular State. We have agreed to the reservation of seats just for the time being for the next ten years to allow those who cannot think of themselves in terms of "Indians" to adjust themselves over this period. I am surprised that the Mover of this amendment should have persisted today in bringing it forward. After the stirring appeal that was made by Sardar Patel and the very cogent and comprehensive arguments put forward by Pandit Pant to show ',,hat separate electorates are not only discordant and jarring to national interests but against the interests of the very communities for which they are intended, I thought he would not have pressed this amendment.
It is a back door method of bringing in separate electorates, which the House did not accept yesterday. Sir, we have stood aside helplessly while artificially this problem. of religious differences--an echo of medieval times, has been fostered and nurtured and enhanced by tile method of political devices such as separate electorates in order to serve the interests of our alien rulers.
Today we see as a result our country divided and provinces like my own dismembered We see that many who have made sacrifices, in the struggle for the freedom of India cannot be citizens; of India today. We have learnt indeed a bitter lesson. We have submitted to all this so that at least in., the rest of India that remains with us now we may go ahead in forming a democratic secular State-without bringing in religion to cloud the issue Religion is a personal matter. Religious differences might have been exploited as a political expendient by the British but there Is no room for that in the India of today, Six. the problem, that Faces us is not a problem of minorities or of majorities on a religious basis. The problem that faces us is the problem of the vast majority in the country irrespective of religion, the majority who today are surrounded by ignorance and ill-health, hunger and want. It is they who are the backward sections of the, community and who are the majority at the same time. It is their problem that we have to take up. If we want to make the Objectives Resolution that this House has passed and the Fundamental Rights that have been laid down, a living reality it is this problem that we have. got to tackle. We cannot allow any subtle devices by the back door such as restricted separate electorates to sidetrack us now from the main issue. We cannot expect those who are backward to function and participate as citizens with equal rights unless we take steps to make them conscious of their rights, By all means let us do all that we can to help their development through every means In our power, and make such provision in the constitution. But a separatist tendency on the basis of religion is something that I do not think we -------------------------------------------------------- *English translation of Hindustani speech.
can tolerate any longer. We have never stood nor do 'we stand today for Hindu domination; we do not want that Hindus as such as a religious community shall override any other interests. But 'We' do want that India's interests shall be paramount, that the interests of no special community shall stand in the way. whether it is a majority or a minority religious community. Sir, I hope that this House will throw out this amendment and that we shall be able to go ahead until we are able to find a solution for the real problems that confront us, so that India can take her proper place in the comity of nations; so that in accordance with the cultural heritage which is ours, enriched by the variety of the cultures, that have found a home in this country, we will be enabled to play an effective part in the harmonious development of the world as a whole.
Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad: Sir, the amendment moved by Mr. Ibrahim has raised a little tempest in a teapot. I submit that it is better to look at it from a practical point of view. I admire the splendid idealism preached by the Honourable lady from West Bengal who spoke just now. I cannot aspire to be as eloquent and as persuasive as she can claim to be. But I think that though it is a good thing to be an idealist it is a useful thing to be a realist. I do not like the prevailing situation at all; I do not like that there should be any difference between the Hindus and the Muslims. I do not believe that the better classes have any differences in the higher walks of life.. But after all our community consists of men who are not idealists; there are men who have a communal outlook. We find this exemplified in the elections. In municipal and other elections where joint electorate prevail, the voting, as' is well known to those who have experience, has for long been carried on on communal lines. As I said before, I do not like this and no right thinking man likes it. But the situation should be looked at, as I said, from a practical point of view and with a due sense of proportion. What is the percentage of the majority community in India ? It is something like 75 and the percentage of Muslims would be about 25. In order to appreciate the enormous difference between the two I shall refer to a famous cartoon in a very. well known paper here,. where the attitude of the great Hindu community towards the Muslims in this House was depicted by the famous cartoonist Shankar.
He represents the great Hindu community as an elephant in a most affectionate mood and the elephant is holding in an affectionate embrace with his trunk the Muslim community-a weakling in the shape of our leader Chaudri Khaliquzzaman. That gives to my mind, from a cartoonists' point of view, of course, the sense of proportion in which the Muslim stands to the Hindus. What is after all the effect of this prayer I do not call it a demand-put forth through this amendment ? It is this that the Hindu community who can be collectively described as the elder brother has in a generous mood conceded for the period of ten years-I should consider that period quite sufficient-that they should get a reserved representation. It seems to me that it implies that the great Hindu community are willing for this period of ten years to listen to what difficulties and complaints, apart from the justice or otherwise of these complaints, of the Muslim community. The only effect of allowing certain Muslim members to come through these 30 per cent. limit would be this, that 25 per cent. Muslims would come into the Legislature. VIM would the weakling younger brother represent to the elder brother the elephant ? What would be the nature of his prayer ? It will be an appeal. NO danger or harm can follow from this in the period of ten years if the elder brother listens to the grievances of the younger brother. These grievances and difficulties may be unreal or exggagerated, they may be due more to fear and suspicion rather than to any real reasons, but what would be the effect, I ask in all humility, what fearful consequences would arise out of these ? If there is any reason in the prayer, then the elder brother, the affectionate elephant will accept it, if there is none he will reject it. That is all that will happen. I do not think the fearful consequences that are confidently predicted would at all follow from the acceptance of this amendment. I again submit, Sir. this is just a prayer on behalf of the younger brother to the elder brother in the shape of this vast august Assembly.
But I know that the result is a foregone conclusion. This amendment and the speeches in support of it reminds me of the argument of a lawyer before a judge, with the knowledge that the judgment has already been written and awaits delivery after his argument is over. We all know the result of the voting that is going to follow. But I hope that if we lose the amendment, the younger brother does not lose the affection of the elder brother.
Mr. President: I have received a number of slips, from Members who want to speak and I also see a number 'of Members standing, but....
Honourable Members: Closure.
Mr. President: I too think that we have had enough discussion now and would therefore put the motion for closure. The question is:
That the question be now put.
The motion was adopted.
Mr. President: The Honourable Mover may reply now.
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel:; Sir, I am sorry to see that so much time has been taken on this amendment which I thought was going to be withdrawn and on which there would not be much debate. So far as the Scheduled Castes are concerned, I do not think Very much has to be said on this amendment, because I got a representation from a large majority of the Scheduled Castes representatives in this House, except one or two or three, that they were all against this amendment (Hear, Hear),' and Mr. Nagappa knew about it. But Mr. Nagappa wanted to move his amendment to fulfil a promise or undertaking or at least to show his community that he was not purchased by the majority community Well, he has done his job, but other people took him seriously and took a lot of time.
So far as the amendment moved by the representative of the Muslim League is concerned, I find that I was mistaken in my Impression.
and if I had believed this, 1,would certainly not have agreed to any reservation at all. (Hear, Hear). When I agreed to the reservation an the population basis, I thought that our friends of the Muslim League will see the reasonableness of our attitude and allow themselves to accommodate themselves to the changed conditions after the separation of the country. But I now find them adopting the same methods which were adopted when the separate electorates were first introduced in this country, and in spite of ample sweetness in the language used there is a full dose of poison in the method adopted. (Hear, Hear). Therefore,I regret to say that if I lose the affection of the younger brother, I am prepared to lose it because the method he wants to adopt would bring about his death. I would rather lose his affection and keep him alive. If this amendment is lost, we will lose the affection of the younger brother, but I prefer the younger brother to live so that he may see the wisdom of the attitude of the elder brother and he may still learn to have affection for the elder brother.
Now, this formula has a history behind it and those who are in the Congress will be able to remember that history. In Congress history this is known as the Mohammad Ali Formula. Since the introduction of separate electorates in this land there were two parties amongst tile Muslims. One was the Nationalist Muslims or the Congress Muslims and the other the Muslim League members, or the representatives of the Muslim League. There was considerable tension on this question and at one time there was a practical majority against this joint electorate. But a stage was reached when, as was pointed out by the Mover of this amendment in Allahabad a settlement was reached. Did we stand by that settlement ? No. We now have got the division of the country. In order to prevent the separation of the country this formula was evolved by the nationalist Muslims, as a sort of half-way house, until the nation becomes one; we wished to drop it afterwards. But now the separation of the country is complete and you say, let us introduce. it again and have another separation. I do not understand this met-hod of affection. Therefore, although I would not have liked to say anything on this motion, I think it is better that we know our minds perfectly each other, so that we can understand where we stand. If the process that was adopted, which resulted in the separation of the country, is to be repeated, then I say : Those who want that kind of thing have a place in Pakistan, not here (Applause.) Here, we are building a nation and we are laying the foundations of One Nation, and those who choose to divide again and sow the seeds of disruption will have no place, no quarter, here, and I must say that plainly enough. (Hear, Hear.) Now, if you think that reservation necessarily means this clause as you have suggested, I am prepared to withdraw the reservation for your own benefit. If you agree to that, I am prepared, and I am sure no one in this House will be against the withdrawal of the reservation if that is a satisfaction to you. (Cheers.) You cannot have it both ways. Therefore, my friends, you must change your attitude, adapt yourself to the changed conditions. And don't pretend to say "Oh, our affection is very great for you". We have seen your affection. Why talk of it ? Let us forget the affection. Let us face the realities. Ask yourself whether you really want to stand here and cooperate with us or you want again to play disruptive tactics. Therefore when I appeal to you, I appeal to you to have a change in your heart, not a change in the tongue, because that won't pay here. Therefore, I still appeal to you : "Friends, reconsider your attitude and withdraw your amendment". Why go on saying "Oh, Muslims were not heard; Muslim amendment was not carried". If that is going to pay you, you are much mistaken, and I know how it cost me to protect the Muslim minorities here under the present condition and in the present atmosphere. Therefore, I suggest that you don't forget that the days in which the agitation of the type you carried on are closed and we begin a new chapter. Therefore, I once more appeal to you to forget the past. Forget what has happened. You have got what you wanted. You have got a separate State and remember, you are the people who were responsible for it, and not those who remain in Pakistan. You led the agitation. You got.it. What is it that you want now ? I don't understand. In the majority Hindu provinces YOU, the minorities, you led the agitation. You got the partition and now again you tell me and ask me to say for the purpose of Securing the affection of the younger brother that I must agree to the same thing again, to divide the country again in the divided part. For God's sake, understand that we have also got some sense. Let us understand the thing clearly. Therefore when I say we must forget the past, I say it sincerely. There will be no injustice done to you. There will be generosity towards you, but there must be reciprocity. If it is absent, then you take it from me that no soft words can conceal what is behind your words. Therefore, I plainly once more appeal to you strongly that let us forget and let us be one nation.
To the Scheduled Caste friends, I also appeal: "Let us forget what Dr. Ambedkar or Ms group have done. Let us forget what you did. You have very nearly escaped partition of the country again on your lines. You have seen the result of separate electorates in Bombay, that when the greatest benefactor of your community came to Bombay to stay in bhangi quarters it was your people who tried to stone his quarters. What was it ? It was again the result of this poison, and therefore I resist this only because I feel that the vast majority of the Hindu population wish you well.. Without them where will you he ? Therefore, secure their confidence and forget that you are a Scheduled Caste. I do not understand how Mr. Khandekar is a Scheduled Caste man. If he and I were to go outside India, nobody will find out whether he is a Scheduled Caste man or I am a Scheduled Caste man. There is no Scheduled Caste between us. So those representatives of the Scheduled Caste must know that the Scheduled Caste has to be effaced altogether from our society, and if it is to be effaced, those who have ceased to be untouchables and sit amongst us have to forget that they are untouchables or else if they carry this inferiority complex, they will not be able to serve their community. They will only be able to serve their community by feeling now that they are with us They are no more Scheduled Castes and therefore they must change their manners and I appeal to them also to have no breach between them and the other group of Scheduled Castes. There are groups amongst themselves, but everyone tries according to his own light. We are now to begin again. So let us forget these sections and cross-sections and let us stand as one, and together.
Mr. President: I have first to put the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.
Shri S. Nagappa: I do not press my amendment. I withdraw it.
Mr. President: Does the House give him leave to withdraw his amendment ?
Honourable Members: Yes.
The amendment was, by leave of the Assembly, withdrawn.
Mr. President: Then there remains Ahmed Ibrahim Sahib Bahadur's amendment,-
"That on a consideration of the Report of the Advisory Committee on minorities, fundamental rights. etc. on minority rights this meeting of the, Constituent Assembly resolves that in case the elections to the Central and Provincial Legislatures are to be held on the basis of joint electorates for all communities with reservation of seats for minorities, the election should be held on the following basis:-'Out of the candidates who have secured at least 30 per cent. of the votes polled of their own community, the candidate who secures the highest number of votes polled on the joint electoral roll shall be declared elected. In case there is no candidate, who has secured not less than 30 per cent. of the votes polled of his own community, then out of the two candidates who secures the highest number of votes of their own community, that candidate shall be declared elected who secures the highest number of votes of the total votes polled'
The amendment was negatived, Mr. President: I now put the original clause 6
Clause 6 was adopted.